Prime Time Replay:
Dr. Michael Kimmel
on Manhood in America
MsgId: *brain_storm(7)
Date: Fri Dec 6 21:47:30 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_with_Michael_Kimmel At: 206.80.175.51
KH: Welcome to tonight's Brainstorms. I am your host, Dr. Keith Harary, and our guest tonight is Dr. Michael Kimmel, discussing his recent book, MANHOOD IN AMERICA.Kimmel's authoritative, entertaining and wide-ranging history of men in America demonstrates that manhood has meant very different things in different eras. Drawing on advice books, magazines, political pamphlets, and popular novels and films, he makes two surprising claims: First, manhood is homosocial -- that is, men need to prove themselves to each other, not to women. Second, definitions of manliness have evolved in response to women's movements. When women act, men react.
For clarity, as always, we'll identify ourselves by our initials -- KH for Keith Harary and MK for Michael Kimmel.
KH: Welcome to Brainstorms, Dr. Kimmel.
MsgId: *brain_storm(10)
Date: Fri Dec 6 22:00:59 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_with_Michael_Kimmel At: 206.80.175.51
MK: Thanks, Keith, it's a pleasure to be here.
MsgId: *brain_storm(11)
Date: Fri Dec 6 22:02:13 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_with_Michael_Kimmel At: 206.80.175.51
KH: Your intriguing book, MANHOOD IN AMERICA, says that our images of masculinity have changed quite a bit throughout American history. What have been the most notable changes, in your opinion?
MsgId: *brain_storm(12)
Date: Fri Dec 6 22:03:41 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_with_Michael_Kimmel At: 206.80.175.51
MK: Actually, we can say a couple of things about the differences about what it meant to be a man in the 1800's and what it means to be a man today. In the 1800's, the word manhood was the opposite of the word childhood. So, what we think of as manliness was the opposite of childishness. By the year 1900 the opposite of the word masculinity was femininity. So the definition had changed from being an adult and being responsible as an adult to being not like women.That's just one of many changes. In about 1800, there were 2 models of what it meant to be a man in America -- one was the lord of the manor and the other was of a working man with his sleeves rolled up. Think of the difference between Thomas Jefferson on his estate and Paul Revere at his pewter forge. Around the middle of the 19th Cent., a new model of masculinity appeared -- what I call the "self made man." In the 1830's, Henry Clay said on the floor of the Senate, "We are a nation of self made men," and I take that to be one of the starting points in American history that reveals the changes in what it meant to be a man in America.
MsgId: *brain_storm(17)
Date: Fri Dec 6 22:10:00 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_with_Michael_Kimmel At: 206.80.175.51
KH: What exactly was the "self made man"?
MsgId: *brain_storm(18)
Date: Fri Dec 6 22:12:44 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_with_Michael_Kimmel At: 206.80.175.51
MK: The self made man is, I think, America's contribution to the stock of characters of the world's types of masculinity. The self made man was an ideology that says men are not born, they're made, they make themselves, and in America you can rise as far as you want to go. This is the ideology of unlimited mobility. But the other side of unlimited mobility is that, just as you can rise as far as you can possibly go, you also can fall. So the self made man is also anxious. The self made man is also able to be undone -- can fall -- not only rise. He has to be proving himself all the time. One the themes of my book is to ask the question: Why is it that American men seem to feel that they have to prove it all the time?
MsgId: *brain_storm(19)
Date: Fri Dec 6 22:13:43 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_with_Michael_Kimmel At: 206.80.175.51
KH: What exactly is it that they had to prove and do we still, as men that is, find ourselves having to "prove it" today?
MsgId: *brain_storm(20)
Date: Fri Dec 6 22:19:13 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_with_Michael_Kimmel At: 206.80.175.51
MK: I think that what American men have always been trying to prove is that they're real men. We do an enormous number of things to prove that we are real men. We take amazing risks -- we drive fast, we build up our muscles, we make a lot of money, we take a lot of risks. You would think that at some point we wouldn't have anything more to prove, but remember Jack Palance receiving the Academy Award for Best Supporting Actor a couple of years ago, when he came to the podium and picked up the award and said that a lot of Hollywood producers said that he couldn't do it anymore, and then he dropped to the stage and did a series of one-armed push-ups, and then he got back up and picked up the Oscar and said, "And I can still get it up." I thought to myself, When does it end? When do you get to stop having to prove it all the time? And the guy's 75 years old, and he still is proving that he is a real man. That is the other side of the self made man. The self made man has done amazing things in the world and when does he stop feeling that he has to prove it. He's built amazing civilizations but he still feels insecure and still feels that he has to prove it.
MsgId: *brain_storm(24)
Date: Fri Dec 6 22:23:06 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_with_Michael_Kimmel At: 206.80.175.51
KH: You make the point in MANHOOD IN AMERICA that when you say men feel they have to prove it, you really mean that they have to prove themselves to each other, not to women. Can you elaborate on why you feel that is the case? Surely, men must be trying impress women at some level, otherwise, what would be the point?
MsgId: *brain_storm(25)
Date: Fri Dec 6 22:24:06 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_with_Michael_Kimmel At: 206.80.175.51
MK: Of course, this is exactly what I expected when I started my research. I intended to write a history of the idea of masculinity and what I expected to find, of course, was that men were constantly posturing themselves in front of women. Much to my surprise, that's not what I found at all. What I found was that from our early childhood when we're looking to our fathers for approval, to our school days when we're always showing off to the other boys, to our work days when we're competing with other guys to get ahead, that we really want to be a man among men -- that we want to be seen as a real man by other men. I didn't expect this. In this view, women almost become a kind of currency that men use to prove themselves to each other. Look at the beautiful woman I got! I must be one hell of a guy!
MsgId: *brain_storm(28)
Date: Fri Dec 6 22:28:20 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_with_Michael_Kimmel At: 206.80.175.51
KH: You also say that when women act, men react, and suggest that our definitions of manliness have actually evolved in response to women's movements. But doesn't this suggest that at some level men are responding in their behavior to what women think and not just to other men?
MsgId: *brain_storm(29)
Date: Fri Dec 6 22:30:35 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_with_Michael_Kimmel At: 206.80.175.51
MK: When I say that women act and men react, it's an argument that -- well, of course, women became dissatisfied with gender arrangements earlier than men did, so women have been trying to change them for a long time. Men would never have come up with the idea, all by themselves, that masculinity is a bum deal -- let's change it -- but we've been pushed to do it by women. In the same way that I would say that white people would never challenge ideas about race; it took people of color to do that...
MsgId: *brain_storm(30)
Date: Fri Dec 6 22:32:21 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_with_Michael_Kimmel At: 206.80.175.51
KH: But, from the way you have described the self made man, it doesn't seem like a very comfortable role, after all. So, if men were not motivated on their own to change it, are they finally beginning to feel motivated today? Are the roles changing?
MsgId: *brain_storm(31)
Date: Fri Dec 6 22:34:22 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_with_Michael_Kimmel At: 206.80.175.51
MK: You'd think so. There's some evidence that men are changing, particularly around their relationships around fatherhood. A large number of men today want to be better fathers than their own fathers were and are very eager to change the traditional masculine role to become better fathers. It seems to be the one area that's changing dramatically. But on the other hand, you would think that the gender that has all of this power would be a little more satisfied with it, but in fact we're not at all ... one of the real ironies of masculinity these days.
MsgId: *brain_storm(32)
Date: Fri Dec 6 22:36:14 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_with_Michael_Kimmel At: 206.80.175.51
KH: I was fascinated to read in MANHOOD IN AMERICA about the "M-F" test that was once used to analyze the masculinity and femininity of adolescents. Since that test was used well into the 1960's, how does it continue to impact us today?
MsgId: *brain_storm(33)
Date: Fri Dec 6 22:38:46 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_with_Michael_Kimmel At: 206.80.175.51
MK: My students barely believe me when I tell them about it. They say "No way! That couldn't be true." The M-F test was actually invented by a psychologist in the 1930's at Stanford -- the same guy who invented the IQ test, so this is not some crackpot psychologist. This is probably the most respected psychologist in America at the time. The M-F test was designed to help parents and teachers measure how successfully their children had become masculine or feminine. So they gave these young adolescents a battery of tests, which I include in the book as an appendix, ranging from knowledge and what they wanted to do when they grew up and what kind of people they liked and didn't like -- inkblot tests. The whole idea was to try to find out if boys and girls were successful at being masculine or feminine. Because the parents were so terribly afraid that if their children had not successfully mastered being gender appropriate they would become gender inappropriate, i.e., they would be gay. So the entire test was designed to try to reassure parents that their kids were basically going to be all right and, if the kids weren't all right, this would allow parents to have some intervention early enough to make a difference.
MsgId: *brain_storm(35)
Date: Fri Dec 6 22:42:05 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_with_Michael_Kimmel At: 206.80.175.51
KH: What sorts of interventions were visited upon children who were considered gender inappropriate?
MsgId: *brain_storm(36)
Date: Fri Dec 6 22:44:01 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_with_Michael_Kimmel At: 206.80.175.51
MK: If a boy liked painting or playing the piano, his parents were told to get him outside and play football and to read books like "Captains Courageous" and "The Biography of Teddy Roosevelt." And if a girl liked climbing trees, her parents were advised to get her to read "Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm" and to think about becoming a librarian.Several years ago I taught in a nursery school. There was one little boy who just loved painting. He would sit for hours at the easel and paint, but when his parents saw me, the boy teacher, they were so excited that maybe I could encourage him to stop painting and encourage him to play with the trucks and the jungle gym. They came up to me with a kind of desperation in their eyes and pleaded with me to please get him to stop painting. I found out that he actually truly loved painting so what I tried to do was to help them to get to be a little more comfortable with it.
It is really fascinating to think about what kind of damage we do in the effort to supposedly help our kids.
MsgId: *brain_storm(39)
Date: Fri Dec 6 22:49:20 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_with_Michael_Kimmel At: 206.80.175.51
KH: When we get beyond cultural stereotypes, what is left at the core of our masculinity or femininity? Would you agree with those who suggest that there are no really significant differences between the sexes? Or, do you find that silly?
MsgId: *brain_storm(40)
Date: Fri Dec 6 22:50:45 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_with_Michael_Kimmel At: 206.80.175.51
MK: I get asked this question all the time. It's as if to say that since I think that men are capable of changing -- of being more responsive partners and more nurturing fathers -- that somehow I'm saying that men and women aren't different and, of course, they're different, and it's wonderful that men and women are different. But there's very little evidence that the differences between women and men are as big as or in the areas that we think they are.
MsgId: *brain_storm(41)
Date: Fri Dec 6 22:51:27 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_with_Michael_Kimmel At: 206.80.175.51
KH: What do you think the differences really are?
MsgId: *brain_storm(43)
Date: Fri Dec 6 22:54:41 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_with_Michael_Kimmel At: 206.80.175.51
MK: As I said, I think there are some differences, but I think we need to be careful about overemphasizing them at the expense of the similarities. For example, I can't think of any job in the world for which men or women are uniquely qualified, except, perhaps, for surrogate mother or sperm donor. Last year, I was asked to testify in the case about the Citidel and VMI and was asked if there are any significant differences between men and women and whether it would be appropriate for women to go to a formerly all-male military school. My argument was very simple: Throughout American history, women have said We want to do something: We want to go to college, We want to vote, We want to be able to drive, We want to join unions. And every time men have predicted that women wouldn't want to do it, and that women couldn't do it. And every time, women have done it, and they've always succeeded at it. I can think of no case in which women, once they entered the field, turned around and said, "You know what? They were right. Let's go home." So my philosophy is very simple. Instead of asking the experts what women can or cannot do, ask the women.
MsgId: *brain_storm(45)
Date: Fri Dec 6 22:57:41 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_with_Michael_Kimmel At: 206.80.175.51
KH: Well, when you talk about expanding our definition of women and their capabilities, that seems to imply also expanding our definition of masculinity along with it. But is there only one definition of masculinity? Or are there many?
MsgId: *brain_storm(46)
Date: Fri Dec 6 22:59:55 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_with_Michael_Kimmel At: 206.80.175.51
MK: There's two things to say. First of all, there have always been many definitions of masculinity. Just because I've written a history of masculinity doesn't mean that we leave aside notions of race, class, ethnicity or age. So it makes more sense to speak of masculinity in the plural, to acknowledge that there are multiple definitions and not just one.
MsgId: *brain_storm(48)
Date: Fri Dec 6 23:00:55 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_with_Michael_Kimmel At: 206.80.175.51
KH: We're getting near the end of the show. So one last question: Do you have any comments, Michael, about the recent sexual harassment scandals that have been occurring in the military?
MsgId: *brain_storm(49)
Date: Fri Dec 6 23:03:06 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_with_Michael_Kimmel At: 206.80.175.51
MK: That's a cheery way to end! I think it's important to recognize why it is that we are facing so many cases of sexual harassment, not only in the military, but in every corporation, university, law firm in America is worried about sexual harassment, and I think that's because men do not yet know how to be equals in the workplace. Sexual harassment is a way to remind women that although they're in the workplace, they're still just women, and they don't really belong there. But I think that we men have got to acknowledge that the world that we live in today is very different than it was just a few short years ago.For example, my father could go to an all-male college, serve in an all-male military, and spend his entire working life in an all-male work environment. That is simply not possible for any man in America today. There are no more all-male schools, there is no all-male military, and there are virtually no jobs where a man will not have a woman colleague, a woman co-worker, or a woman boss. So the world has dramatically changed, and the question is: What are we men doing to welcome that change?
MsgId: *brain_storm(51)
Date: Fri Dec 6 23:06:43 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_with_Michael_Kimmel At: 206.80.175.51
KH: Whoops -- we did have one last question from a member of our audience, who says: Greetings from Montreal. Do you agree that the women's movement is probably the best thing that ever happened to both women AND men, since it tried to liberate us all from rigid gender roles and stereotypes? And, if so, why can't more men appreciate the efforts of those involved with the struggle???
MsgId: *brain_storm(52)
Date: Fri Dec 6 23:08:51 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_with_Michael_Kimmel At: 206.80.175.51
MK: I think the women's movement has been one of the most powerful movements of our time and it certainly offers enormous possibilities for men as well as women. In part, the argument that I make in my book is that men are terrified of feminism because they are afraid they will lose their ability to prove their manhood. But I believe that feminism offers men enormous possibilities to become more nurturing and caring fathers, friends, partners. One of the writers that I found in my research wrote the following line in 1913, when he decided that he wanted to support women's suffrage and support feminism. "Feminism will make it possible for the first time for men to be free." I think we can end on that.
MsgId: *brain_storm(54)
Date: Fri Dec 6 23:11:25 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_with_Michael_Kimmel At: 206.80.175.51
KH: Thank you, Michael Kimmel, for an inspiring evening. Let me add that we carry your important book, MANHOOD IN AMERICA, in our Bookstore of Omniverse. Thank you for being our guest tonight!
MsgId: *brain_storm(55)
Date: Fri Dec 6 23:12:03 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_with_Michael_Kimmel At: 206.80.175.51
MK: Thank you. It's been a pleasure. It's been really fun!
MsgId: *brain_storm(56)
Date: Fri Dec 6 23:13:20 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_with_Michael_Kimmel At: 206.80.175.51
KH: I'm your host, Dr. Keith Harary, inviting our on-line audience to join us again next week at this same time for another fascinating discussion with a leading researcher exploring the boundaries of the mind, the brain, and human behavior. Good night for Brainstorms!
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