MsgId: *emedia(1)
Date: Mon Sep 22 19:52:18 EDT 1997
From: DaveThomer At: 206.214.136.57
Tonight E-Media welcomes Paul Levinson, president and founder of Connected Education, an organization that has offered graduate courses over the Internet for over a decade. Author of several works of media criticism, his latest book is "THE SOFT EDGE: A NATURAL HISTORY AND FUTURE OF THE INFORMATION REVOLUTION" (Routledge). In it, Levinson examines the way humans have sought to extend their senses across time and space, and deal with the limitations and unintended consequences of those extensions. He also offers his predictions as to how today's extensions, such as the personal computer and Internet, will influence society's development.The chat room will be closed until about 9:20 tonight -- the forms at the bottom of the E-media page will not work. At 9:20, the chat room will be opened, and you will have the opportunity to talk directly with Paul Levinson. When you post your comment, please include your name, since the software will only identify you as "guest."
MsgId: *emedia(4)
Date: Mon Sep 22 20:42:28 EDT 1997
From: Paul_Levinson At: 199.174.156.213
Hi Ellen and Dave -- nice place you have here!
MsgId: *emedia(5)
Date: Mon Sep 22 20:45:48 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.12.74
Hi, Paul. Dave should be here in about 10 minutes.
MsgId: *emedia(6)
Date: Mon Sep 22 20:47:55 EDT 1997
From: Paul_Levinson At: 199.174.156.213
Great -- Looking forward to our chat!
MsgId: *emedia(7)
Date: Mon Sep 22 20:58:40 EDT 1997
From: DaveThomer At: 199.183.41.236
Hello, Paul. Good to have you here.Hello, everyone, and welcome to E-Media. I'm Dave Thomer, and tonight we're talking to Paul Levinson, author of "THE SOFT EDGE."
MsgId: *emedia(9)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:00:15 EDT 1997
From: Paul_Levinson At: 199.174.156.213
Good to be here, Dave
MsgId: *emedia(10)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:01:43 EDT 1997
From: DaveThomer At: 199.183.41.236
Paul, before we get into the book itself, I'd like to talk a little bit about your work at Connected Education, which you use as an example frequently. After a decade of using the Internet to educate, what have you learned about online interaction? What can online education do that traditional, everyone-in-the-lecture-hall education can't?
MsgId: *emedia(12)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:03:49 EDT 1997
From: Paul_Levinson At: 199.174.156.213
Main advantage of online education is that more than one person can talk at the same time. And there are others.... Distance from a university is of course not a problem for students in an online course ... they can be anywhere on the face of the Earth...
MsgId: *emedia(14)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:04:54 EDT 1997
From: DaveThomer At: 199.183.41.236
I guess the flip side of the question is, what advantages does the traditional system still have, and will technological development eventually eliminate those advantages?
MsgId: *emedia(15)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:06:39 EDT 1997
From: Paul_Levinson At: 199.174.156.213
There's a unique feeling in being close to people -- in the same room -- physically. Online education will never provide that feeling -- until it becomes teleportation, or beaming, like in Star Trek ... and then it would be different from online ed as it is today. (And, of course, there's an advantage in actually seeing the people you're talking to ... which we can't quite do now.)
MsgId: *emedia(16)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:10:49 EDT 1997
From: DaveThomer At: 199.183.41.236
That brings up what, to me at least, was one of the most interesting elements of "THE SOFT EDGE" -- the characterization of media technology as a continuing attempt on humans' part to recapture that sense of closeness with their surroundings and their fellow people. How did you develop the theory of "anthropotropic media," as you call it?
MsgId: *emedia(18)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:12:40 EDT 1997
From: Paul_Levinson At: 199.174.156.213
I developed the notion of "anthropotropic" media one day back in 1970s, thinking about holography -- 3 dimensional photography -- and wondering why humans seemed driven to create media that seemed ever more lifelike in their communication.
MsgId: *emedia(19)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:14:57 EDT 1997
From: DaveThomer At: 199.183.41.236
For someone who hasn't read the book, how would you describe this in concrete terms? How does, for example, a television or a personal computer give us access to more "lifelike" communication?
MsgId: *emedia(20)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:17:42 EDT 1997
From: Paul_Levinson At: 199.174.156.213
TV began, of course, as a black-and-white medium, with a small blurry picture. We humans see the world more clearly -- usually in color -- thus, it was inevitable that as TV developed, it would be more "lilfelike" -- in living color, literally ......And this evolution pertains to all media. The first way we communicated across long distances instantly was by the telegraph -- which was (still is) incredibly unreal -- no one communicates in nature via dots and dashes. So, within 50 years of the telegraph, we invented the telephone.
MsgId: *emedia(21)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:18:16 EDT 1997
From: DaveThomer At: 199.183.41.236
The book lays out a pretty clear history of media development, from hieroglyphics to the printing press to TV, radio, and the technology of the twentieth century. Of course, as you say, when you start trying to explain the effcts of the present without hard knowledge of the future, things can get a little dicey . . . but you seem pretty confident in the potential of the emerging online environment. What gives you that confidence?
MsgId: *emedia(23)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:21:48 EDT 1997
From: Paul_Levinson At: 199.174.156.213
(smile) well, confidence is something that comes from (a) having a good command of history, (b) being logical in examing this history, and (c) -- most important -- a good dose of just plain old arrogance.
MsgId: *emedia(24)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:23:12 EDT 1997
From: DaveThomer At: 199.183.41.236
Sorry -- didn't mean to interrupt your train of thought.
MsgId: *emedia(25)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:23:39 EDT 1997
From: Paul_Levinson At: 199.174.156.213
And, several of my predictions -- based upon my theory -- have already come to be ... for example, the field of online communications -- what we're doing right now -- has pretty much developed as I predicted more than 10 years ago.
MsgId: *emedia(27)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:24:25 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.12.74
By the way, I've just opened the chat door.
MsgId: *emedia(29)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:25:32 EDT 1997
From: Paul_Levinson At: 199.174.156.213
Hi everyone else out there!
MsgId: *emedia(30)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:25:42 EDT 1997
From: DaveThomer At: 199.183.41.236
The chat room is now open -- please be sure to include your name in your post; otherwise you will be identified only as "guest."
MsgId: *emedia(31)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:26:25 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 207.107.62.42
Rob Higgins (Toronto): Greetings Paul... Long time no see :) Excellent to see you in synchronous text-based chat !! :)
MsgId: *emedia(32)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:26:35 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 192.208.46.249
Hi, Paul! Bill Dubie here. I'm one of Paul's old online students, and I can attest to its value and effectiveness.
MsgId: *emedia(39)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:29:03 EDT 1997
From: Paul_Levinson At: 199.174.156.213
Greetings Rob and Bill -- good to see ya!"The Soft Edge" makes some predictions about some of the ultimate problems of artificial intelligence.
MsgId: *emedia(35)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:28:24 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 147.4.90.102
I would like to know how other countries deal with the internet. As a student, I have just started learning how to use chat rooms and other options on the internet. How do other countries fare in the race to learn new internet abilities?
MsgId: *emedia(43)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:30:17 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 147.4.90.102
Chemene COllier here! I ask the question about the foreign countries and how they deal with the internet. What countries have you been to that you have had to teach or lecture people on the abilities of the internet online services?
MsgId: *emedia(47)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:32:29 EDT 1997
From: Paul_Levinson At: 199.174.156.213
Hi Chemene -- Most countries other than the US are -- at this point -- not as advanced as we on the Web. (But, through the process of leapfrogging, they could conceivably pull ahead of us in the 21st century -- like France did with telephones in the 1980s.
MsgId: *emedia(36)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:28:26 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 152.171.236.6
Hi Paul - Mara Kurtz here. You are the greatest teacher on line and in person!
MsgId: *emedia(37)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:28:40 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 153.35.208.246
hi paul. it's your nephew Eric here. Glad to hear about the new book.
MsgId: *emedia(38)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:28:54 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 130.63.219.119
Geez, big ConnectEd crowd here tonight! I'm Paul kelly, another graduate through Paul L's program in Media Studies. Hi Everyone.
MsgId: *emedia(40)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:29:13 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 207.36.4.10
Hi folks-- Teleconferencing is now widely used for training purposes. What limitations does Paul see? For example, does it work better with content-oriented material as opposed to training designed to modify behavior? --Jack McDevitt
MsgId: *emedia(42)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:30:16 EDT 1997
From: Paul_Levinson At: 199.174.156.213
Hi Paul, Eric (hug for my nephew!), Mara, Jack!To Jack's question: online education is least efffective for areas in which direct hands-on experience is needed. For example: I wouldn't want to be operated upon by a surgeon who had been trained solely online.
MsgId: *emedia(44)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:30:19 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 147.4.175.203
Steve Carpi (sco 04) and Scott Koenig (mass media) we take your class at Hofstra University. We were just saying that on-line learning might be appealing to those that don't want to leave their houses, but knowing your personality in class, don't you feel that on-line education would take away from the comic relief you so proudly display?" :)
MsgId: *emedia(54)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:33:48 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 208.200.82.12
To your Hofstra students: Don't worry, Paul can be just as funny and entertaining on-line...Hi, Paul! Just dropped in to say Hello! Lisa Nocks
MsgId: *emedia(65)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:36:59 EDT 1997
From: Paul_Levinson At: 199.174.156.213
To Steve and Scott: My lame humor will no doubt come through even in an online environment (see my above observation about online surgeons, right?)
MsgId: *emedia(50)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:32:51 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 152.171.236.6
Mara here - would your Japanese audience have laughed at your jokes on line?
MsgId: *emedia(41)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:29:24 EDT 1997
From: DaveThomer At: 199.183.41.236
One of the ideas of the book I particularly liked was that the Web and the Internet now allow everyone to be authors in a way that TV and radio never did. But I'm a little worried about whether that potential will be realized, now that the Net is becoming a tool of commerce. The presence of corporations on the web, the growth of advertising, and the increasing technical sophistication of the Web (a la plug ins like Shockwave, VRML, etc.) seem to be removing the Net from its roots. How can we make sure that the Net doesn't waste its potential?
MsgId: *emedia(49)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:32:35 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 199.172.62.5
Hi Paul! Michael Burstein here.The blurbs for your book mention a lot about your commenting on the science fiction of Isaac Asimov. Can you elaborate?
MsgId: *emedia(69)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:39:15 EDT 1997
From: Paul_Levinson At: 199.174.156.213
To Michael: "The Soft Edge" cites Isaac as one of the four most influential thinkers in my life. His robot stories are probably the most significant thinking about the ethical quandaries of AI yet written (and that includes work by serious -- and comical -- philosophers).
MsgId: *emedia(84)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:47:12 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 199.172.62.5
Michael Burstein here again, Paul. I was planning to read your book anyway, but now that I know there's a significant Asimovian influence on you, it'll just make it more worthwhile.
MsgId: *emedia(45)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:30:47 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 206.127.46.145
Terry McGarry (New York): Hi, Paul! Congrats again on "SOFT EDGE"coming out.
MsgId: *emedia(46)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:31:55 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.12.74
Hi Terry, Jack. Good to see you here:)
MsgId: *emedia(48)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:32:33 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 207.107.62.42
Rob Higgins (Toronto): Paul, I haven't read the book yet, but you must have really related the human side and always in favour of positive reflection on our relationship with technology into the future...
MsgId: *emedia(52)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:33:36 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 208.192.250.222
Hi Paul. Your student Joe Territo here. I don't think "dull" students is a problem with online classes because distance education through the Internet forces participants to express themselves intelligently in order to earn their grade. You can't sit in the back of the class, eyes glued to your desk. You have to communicate, or you will fail. I feel that type of interaction is much more valuable and educational than in-person testing. I'd even venture to say our public schools would be more successful in educating children if they incorporated online programs forcing students to concentrate on the materials at hand in an at-home environment where they can concentrate better and be more inhibited than face-to-face with their peers. Do you agree, to any extent?
MsgId: *emedia(60)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:35:16 EDT 1997
From: Paul_Levinson At: 199.174.156.213
Hi Steve and Scott! Hi Terry! Hiya Michael and Joe!
MsgId: *emedia(61)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:35:21 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 152.163.213.33
Hi Paul! Cynthia Bobash from Ohio; I started with Connect Ed three years ago. It was a fascinating experience. I would never have participated as much in a traditional setting.
MsgId: *emedia(55)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:33:54 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 206.175.225.82
Hello, from Long Beach, California. I taught in Paul's program at the New School and was the first person to get an MA in Media Studies from solely online classes there. Virtual communications always tap the cutting edge, like Paul's work. BTW I am running an online bookshop now, specializing in of all things books on and about teddy bears. http://www.bearsandbooks.com
MsgId: *emedia(53)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:33:37 EDT 1997
From: DaveThomer At: 199.183.41.236
I'm thinking in particular about TV -- with a camcorder and a cheap VCR or two, any one can make video content, as you say in the book. There are even public access cable stations to air such efforts. But they don't attract an audience because they don't have the marketing muscle or production glitz that network or even syndicated and local TV do. Can't this happen to the Internet?
MsgId: *emedia(56)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:33:55 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 206.9.120.135
Paul's been in e-media from the get-go. Harry Stevens/Parti.Would you agree, more recently, that glasnost/perestroika, downsizing/outsourcing, networks displacing hierarchies, turning outside/in and inside/out are due to softer e-media?
MsgId: *emedia(62)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:36:29 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 147.4.175.203
S. Carpi & S. Koenig again, "how are the effects of the everchanging technological society going to affect future generations of students? Do you think that there will ever be a time when using the microphone attachment teachers and students will be able to converse? Because a lot of the learning process is done through verbal conotation ie. sarcasm, anger, joy."
MsgId: *emedia(76)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:43:34 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 207.36.4.10
Watching Paul try to juggle questions coming from all directions suggests that, whatever advantages it may offer, the instructor will need to be even quicker on his/her feet than in a standard classroom setting. Good show, Paul. --Jack.
MsgId: *emedia(64)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:36:36 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 206.175.225.82
I see a few familiar names online here, Joe Terito, Harry Stevens, for a few. Congratulations on the new book Paul. Gail S. Thomas, Long Beach, California
MsgId: *emedia(66)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:37:44 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 153.35.208.246
paul-- how can the sense of community and connection to place be enhanced by today's modern forms of media? Eric
MsgId: *emedia(68)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:39:13 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 207.107.62.42
Rob Higgins (Toronto): Just a couple of points Paul, since I doubt you will be able to answer all ....It seems to me that anthropotropic is also human egocentric and that lifelike may be a relative notion.
Perhaps we may communicate in pulses some day as matter of evolutionary need.
And in my recent consulting work using software such as CUSeeMe and NetMeeting ... with video over the Internet ... after we smiled and waved, we turned off the video ... and got down to work on the whiteboard supplemented with voice interaction.
Just some twists to consider :) ... I'll just watch from here on ...
MsgId: *emedia(70)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:40:10 EDT 1997
From: DaveThomer At: 199.183.41.236
And who says people can't form communities over the Internet?
MsgId: *emedia(71)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:40:36 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 208.192.250.222
Taking that "verbal expression" question a step further, Paul, do you envision the development of technology that makes it easier to communicate in print, online while simultaneously expressing emotions in a non-print manner? What I mean is, do you think there will ever be technology -- some advanced form of "emoticons" :-) that allows users to communicate in print (which I think makes online education most effective) and to include in those communications accurate indications of their emotions tied to the words through special types of characters? Does this question make any sense? (If not, I'll try and clarify.) -- Joe Territo
MsgId: *emedia(72)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:40:41 EDT 1997
From: Paul_Levinson At: 199.174.156.213
Hi Lisa, Cynthia, Gail, and Harry (the developer of Participate, one of the oldest -- and still best -- computer conferencing systems in the business)!On the question of community -- and communication of emotions online: The most emotional organ (to paraphrase something or other) is the human brain. And via that organ, we can generate an incredible amount of both community and emotion online, as several of you have said.
MsgId: *emedia(73)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:42:31 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 128.205.200.12
Hi Paul, Roger Puchalski, an old Con-Ed student just saying hello and a bit curious about this new book. When I see "Natural History" I immediately think of some "stuffed" exhibit in the museum -- definately not high tech! Good Luck!
MsgId: *emedia(75)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:42:53 EDT 1997
From: DaveThomer At: 199.183.41.236
But in such a community, is much communication going on? I've had friends complain to me, about clases where it seemed the participants were focused only on saying what they wanted to say and not listening to anyone else. When EVERYONE can post, and EVERYONE has something to say, how do people tune out the distractions and focus on whatever information they want to receive and interpret at the time?
MsgId: *emedia(82)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:46:32 EDT 1997
From: Paul_Levinson At: 199.174.156.213
Hi Roger -- you old stuffed fossil.On Dave's question about too much information -- I say: ain't no such thing. The human brain is adept at processing vast amounts of information. That's what we thrive on.
MsgId: *emedia(85)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:47:19 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 208.192.250.222
Dave -- It's much easier to tune out information you don't need and to sort out the real gems online in a "non-live" environment. Don't get me wrong, this live chat is fun, but a bulletin board system such as the one used by Paul's ConnectEd gives users the time to sort through what their classmates have said and then think through an intelligent response before posting, instead of rushing to crank out copy before the a fleeting thought is lost. -- Joe Territo
MsgId: *emedia(86)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:47:41 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 147.4.154.20
Hi Paul, Is the format for the online classes the same as these chat rooms? If so It would seem we've got a long way to go before a majority of the population will be semi-comfortable with it. (Jamie M. SCO-4 @ Hofstra)
MsgId: *emedia(87)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:48:16 EDT 1997
From: Paul_Levinson At: 199.174.156.213
Hi Ari and Martin!More on info overload: I think more problems are caused by not enough info (misunderstandings arise from paucities of information).
MsgId: *emedia(88)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:48:26 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 153.35.208.246
Whereas, I agree that this is an incredible experience (being new to this) and definetely utilizes the brain, however I am not sure that I think any community can be whole with just brain power. As to the point made about other forms of learning and community, I think the problem there is in how the teaching is undertaken not necessarily the concept of community. Eric
MsgId: *emedia(91)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:49:47 EDT 1997
From: Paul_Levinson At: 199.174.156.213
For example: to get back to Harry's point about glasnost: the Soviet Union was essentially beaten by information (from the West, and about the West -- about our plans to develop SDI) -- not by military technologies.
MsgId: *emedia(92)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:50:52 EDT 1997
From: DaveThomer At: 199.183.41.236
But doesn't the brain process that information by tuning out some details, and focusing on others -- such as when you concentrate on a book and lose track of the fact that your foot has fallen asleep, or when you try to ignore the noise of a crowd in a store to hear the song being played over the loudspeaker better? (Or maybe I'm the only one to do that. . . ) I'm not saying that it's necessarily impossible, just that we need to develop some new structures to process the information, to cut through what we don't want to find what we need. Search engines and databases seem like the beginnings of such an effort -- where do you think it will lead?
MsgId: *emedia(95)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:52:10 EDT 1997
From: Paul_Levinson At: 199.174.156.213
Good points in #85 (Joe) and #86 (Jamie -- hi!) ...Hi Chris!Jamie -- Online classes are conducted asyncjhronously -- so everyone has a chance to read and reflect. (This, in contrast, is fast-paced, free-wheeling, live chat.)
MsgId: *emedia(94)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:51:50 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 208.137.255.165
Aha! I've learned how to post! Mike Byron here. My query: If communications are becoming more "lifelike" then how do you account for the decades long resistance to videophones?
MsgId: *emedia(96)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:54:10 EDT 1997
From: Paul_Levinson At: 199.174.156.213
Good point Mara about JapanTo #89: You should be able to buy "The Soft Edge" in any bookstore in New York City. (Or, you can buy it online at BarnesandNoble.com)
MsgId: *emedia(97)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:55:05 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 207.107.62.42
Rob Higgins (Toronto): aaahhemmm ... some parts of online classes are conducted synchronously like this chat .. the difference is that there is can be a structure and turn-taking model imposed.
MsgId: *emedia(83)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:46:54 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 152.163.195.242
WHAT'S UP PROF. THIS IS YOUR STUDENT CHRIS LAM. IF YOUR PREDICTIONS OF ON-LINE COMMUNICATIONS 10 YEARS AGO WAS ON THE MARK, WHAT DO YOU PREDICT FOR THE FOLLOWING DECADE OF ON-LINE COMMUNICATIONS?
MsgId: *emedia(101)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:56:49 EDT 1997
From: Paul_Levinson At: 199.174.156.213
Chris -- It's a lot easier to say my predictions 10 years ago were right, than to offer new ones about the future now ... but of course I'll try: In ten years, there will be even less difference between TV and the Web then there is now ... indeed, the same screen will be used for TV, Internet, video telephone ... the only enduring difference between media will be...
MsgId: *emedia(99)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:56:08 EDT 1997
From: DaveThomer At: 199.183.41.236
I know all about the potential for online discussion -- I've been BBSing since I was 14, moderated several discussion forums, and I spend WAY too much time on the Net these days -- which is how I'm familiar with not only the advantages, but the potential drawback, the frustrations that I and many other people experience trying to pull a needle of worthwhile information out of an ever-increasing haystack. It's a frustration that has kept many people from embracing the Net, preferring the tried and true -- and simpler -- forms of interaction. Are we going to have to wait until several generations have grown up getting comfortable with this technology for it to really flourish?
MsgId: *emedia(103)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:58:28 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 207.107.62.42
Rob Higgins (Toronto): Dave, you're referring to open fora, not focussed efforts in online communication for education or for knowledge-building generally. Open lists/groups, etc. may give way somewhat to more controllable environments such as Web Conferencing.
MsgId: *emedia(104)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:58:29 EDT 1997
From: Paul_Levinson At: 199.174.156.213
The enduring difference will be: screen versus non-screen media (of which paper is the best extant example)
MsgId: *emedia(107)
Date: Mon Sep 22 22:00:05 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 153.35.208.246
Paul-- Just wanted to say goodbye! Sorry, to ask all those weasly questions. Say hi to all. Keep in touch. Eric
MsgId: *emedia(108)
Date: Mon Sep 22 22:00:22 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 206.9.120.135
Thanks for "old" Participate plug, Paul. Hope some here may drop by the "new" http://fox.co.net/participate. I like to think of it as a local and global online Friends (i.e. Quaker) Meeting, with lots of listening and seeing ideas emerge that belong to no single person -- wow! We experienced that in ConnectEd roundtables, Paul. I see that happening here now. It's not just due to glasnost/openness but to perestroika/restructuring that necessarily follows - in businesses, communities, etc.
MsgId: *emedia(110)
Date: Mon Sep 22 22:01:25 EDT 1997
From: Paul_Levinson At: 199.174.156.213
Rob makes a good point about live chats -- some fine classes are conducted that way online (including his!). But I still think that asynchronous communication gives people more chance for leisurely reflection. As I point out in "The Soft Edge," leisure is an important part of the intellect.
MsgId: *emedia(112)
Date: Mon Sep 22 22:03:16 EDT 1997
From: Paul_Levinson At: 199.174.156.213
Mike B: Good question re: videophones. They've been resisted despite their lifelikeness (or because of it), because people are concerned about invasions of privacy ... they're worried about being surprised and seen butt naked on the phone...Which could be an advantage, or disadvantage, to the viewer, depending ... But once people realize that they can put up a "modesty" screen on the phone, my guess is the video phone will finally catch.
MsgId: *emedia(113)
Date: Mon Sep 22 22:03:45 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 130.191.26.15
re #110 I agree Paul, asychronous is the way to go for most classes most of the time -- students and teachers need time to reflect, that's a big advantage of on-line classes. Jane
MsgId: *emedia(114)
Date: Mon Sep 22 22:03:51 EDT 1997
From: DaveThomer At: 205.186.166.178
So as these more formalized and strucutred systems take their place on the Web and the Net, how will that impact the freewheeling and open structure that exists now -- the ability to leap from link to link all over the Web? I'm not saying I don't think we'll learn how to deal with these challenges -- I'd like to know what ideas others have as to how we're going to do so. (Myself, I think it's going to take constant exposure to the environment and a new understanding that what we read may be as far from the truth as I am from Neptune right now. We're going to have to become more sophisticated receivers of information.)
MsgId: *emedia(115)
Date: Mon Sep 22 22:03:59 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 128.205.200.12
To anyone who hasn't had a Con Ed course - you have to try it. It is really not the technology - it is the medium and an intriguing thought process unlike the traditional classroom - with many more advantages. Roger P.
MsgId: *emedia(119)
Date: Mon Sep 22 22:06:18 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 207.107.62.42
Rob Higgins (Toronto): Can't wait to read the book Paul... I'll look closer at the leisure aspect ... here's an online piece I did that some here may be interested in: MILKING THE MOO COW: COMBINING INTERIM TECHNOLOGIES FOR LEARNING IN CYBERSPACE http://leahi.kcc.hawaii.edu/org/tcc-conf/pres/higgins.html
MsgId: *emedia(120)
Date: Mon Sep 22 22:07:22 EDT 1997
From: Paul_Levinson At: 199.174.156.213
Dave: yeah, I agree that the flow of info online can be frustrating ... but the key is "more" info -- in the form of better navigational structures -- not less. In other words, only by increasing the info on the Web (say, by getting more and better search engines) will frustrations be reduced.
MsgId: *emedia(121)
Date: Mon Sep 22 22:08:52 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 192.208.46.249
Paul, Bill Dubie here. I agree about the videophone: Witness videoconferencing and realtime technologies like whiteboarding. Logging off now. Paul, I'll talk to you later!
MsgId: *emedia(81)
Date: Mon Sep 22 21:45:41 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 169.132.96.36
HI Paul Martin Mc Gloin Here from our online days (daze). How do you view the current proposed constraints being suggested in todays new york times? I.E. The e-mail sherrifs ( really you americans take this law and order thing too far when it invades every aspect of the cultural dialogue Martin
MsgId: *emedia(122)
Date: Mon Sep 22 22:09:13 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 208.137.255.165
A "modesty" screen? So one would have the option of appearing as if fully clothed & etc? Ya that's solve the problem. Looking deeper, would you say that really effective technologies by virtur of disolving time & distance between the participants in any communications interaction require this sort of option before the technology can catch on? Mike Byron
MsgId: *emedia(123)
Date: Mon Sep 22 22:09:14 EDT 1997
From: Paul_Levinson At: 199.174.156.213
Dave: For example: We're rarely frustrated by the amount of info in libraries, because we have learned the navigational information necessary to use the library. (I thus say in "The Soft Edge" that all info overload is really info underload.)Martin: I think the proposal for more online restraints is blatantly unconstitutional; any Congress person who votes for it -- and any President who signs it -- should be impeached for such a grievous violation of the First Amendment
MsgId: *emedia(129)
Date: Mon Sep 22 22:11:53 EDT 1997
From: DaveThomer At: 205.186.166.178
I have to admit it's interesting -- we're online discussing the points rasied in a book about the potential of the online environment. Before we close for the evening, Paul, where do you think the next extension will come? What aspect(s) of communication will we make more lifelike in the near future?
MsgId: *emedia(130)
Date: Mon Sep 22 22:12:41 EDT 1997
From: Paul_Levinson At: 199.174.156.213
I don't know why it's so hard for so many people in government to comprehend English: "Congress shall make no law" restricting freedom of speech and press.Dave: I think the next big leap will in the integration of existing media into more unified systems ... The human brain, after all, sees, hears, tastes, thinks, feels, etc,, all from one little kilogram of matter and the body it connects to.
The enduring message of "The Soft Edge" is that the human being -- we ourselves -- are the best guide to the future of media ... Because we increasingly make media to serve our needs, and thus be more like us.
MsgId: *emedia(134)
Date: Mon Sep 22 22:18:07 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 202.232.49.153
Paul: "next big leap will in the integration of existing media into more unified systems" - What do you think of recent efforts to integrate computers right into the body. The 'wearable computers' research. The next step is obvious. Rory
MsgId: *emedia(135)
Date: Mon Sep 22 22:18:21 EDT 1997
From: Paul_Levinson At: 199.174.156.213
For those of you whose questions I didn't get a chance to answer: I'll read them all in the Omni Archive right here -- and I'll answer them in my next book ... or maybe next time we see each other, in person, or online!
MsgId: *emedia(136)
Date: Mon Sep 22 22:19:35 EDT 1997
From: DaveThomer At: 205.186.166.178
After that answer I'm afraid we'll have to wrap things up . . . I'd like to thank Paul and everyone who participated in tonight's discussion for a lively program.
MsgId: *emedia(137)
Date: Mon Sep 22 22:19:52 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 207.107.62.42
Rob Higgins (Toronto): aaahhh, I still think that anthropotropic is too human egocentric :) I wanna go beyond human .... But thanks for this very human experience all !! Paul, I hope to see you in Toronto... CIAO for NOW!
MsgId: *emedia(140)
Date: Mon Sep 22 22:22:00 EDT 1997
From: Paul_Levinson At: 199.174.156.213
Thanks Ellen and Dave for making this possible!See all of you again soon -- one way or the other! Bye bye.
MsgId: *emedia(141)
Date: Mon Sep 22 22:24:04 EDT 1997
From: DaveThomer At: 205.186.166.178
Thanks again, Paul, and good luck with "THE SOFT EDGE." And thank you to the audience, vocal or silent . . . we'll be here next week for E-Media. In the meantime, check out www.omnimag.com for a complete schedule of this week's programming and more. Have comments on this show? Send them to dthomer@ix.netcom.com. Have a great week!
MsgId: *emedia(144)
Date: Mon Sep 22 23:56:56 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 38.211.17.3
Hi Paul. I missed the time, too. (Work got in the way. Annoying how that happens.) Anyway, just wanted to say I'm looking forward to getting the book. Sounds great. -Ellen Dunkel
MsgId: *emedia(145)
Date: Tue Sep 23 20:43:50 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 206.163.115.25
Hi, Paul. Sorry I missed the live chat but I have just read the archive -- and I'll look forward to reading your book! --Sylvia Engdahl
MsgId: *emedia(146)
Date: Wed Sep 24 03:21:52 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 193.203.8.80
Sorry I could not join on time... Book sounds great and I can hardly wait to see it here in Belgrade! Good luck with it Paul!
MsgId: *emedia(147)
Date: Wed Sep 24 11:45:47 EDT 1997
From: Paul_Levinson At: 199.174.203.69
Hi again folks -- Ellen told me that this transcript will stay "hot" for at least a few more days -- meaning we can still enter our Messages here. And this excellent feature means that we can explore right here some of the benefits of asynchronous communication that we were all discussing in our free-wheeling live discussion night before last...First, a big hello to Ellen Dunkel, Sylvia, and Dusan Tatomirovic (Dusan was Connect Ed's first and still unsurpassed technical and who-knows-what-else trouble shooter -- including a wild night in which he rescued me from a street corner and locked-out car -- he's now living the good life in a penthouse in the middle of Eastern Europe --- great to see you, Dusan!]. One big advantage of asynchronous communication is that it allows people to log on and enter the conversation at different times -- as Ellen Dunkel, Sylvia, and Dusan just did.
Second, our conversation the other night felt to me -- unexpectedly -- like an exhilirating online book-launch party for "The Soft Edge." It was splendid to see such a cross-section of everyone Tina and I have known and worked with online over years -- going back to the early-mid 1980s with Dusan (who was the first student to send me a paper online -- in 1985) and Harry and Sylvia, to my Hofstra students right now. But the pace was so fast and frothy that I had almost all I could do just to breath a quick, excited hello! to each of you -- and then, if I was lucky, pluck a provocative thread from the teeming questions and issues in your posts, and fire off an intelligible (one hopes) answer... This of course left lots of nuggets untouched (at least by me -- Joe, Lisa, and several others of you gave some fine responses).
(Ooops -- accidentally fired off a blank in the above post!] Dave Thomer, in particular, raised a lot of important issues which I didn't address -- either not fully enough, or not at all. So I propose, in the few days, to put up a series of brief comments and replies to some of these questions. (I'll even try to answer a few right now, before I get too hungry for lunch.)
Dave asked way back in Msg10 about the advantages of online education. I replied with two: everyone can speak at once (we certainly saw that here, and distance becomes irrelevant. To further qualify: obviously, everyone speaking at once only becomes a real advantage when the asynchronous mode -- which I'm now using -- comes into play. Otherwise, online talk can become victim in the same way as in-person talk to too many voices.
Also, there are many other advantages of online education -- I like referring to these as obstacles that online ed overcomes. These include obstacles of time (online information doesn't evaporate the instant its created, as does speech; and, in the case of asynchronous communication, people can take part in the conversation at whatever time works best for them.
Many physical handicaps also become irrelevant online (one of our first online students was deaf since birth -- I wrote an essay describing the magical feeling I had watching him fly on online). There are more details about this in "The Soft Edge;" in "Learning Cyberspace;" and in "Learning Abound," an article by me in the March 1997 Analog.
Next, Dave asked in his M16 about how I came up with my "anthropotropic theory" of media evolution: Its first -- and only, until "The Soft Edge" -- major explication was in my PhD dissertation, "Human Replay: A Theory of the Evolution of Media" (NYU, 1979). "The Soft Edge" updates and expands the theory in many ways. The heart of the theory is three-fold: (a) in the beginning -- in the "pre-technological" environment, we communicate with full sensory experience (sight, sound, touch potential, etc.), but are limited in how far across space and time we can communicate, because our eyes and ears only reach so far, and speech and memory are the only frail ways to preserve information across time.
So we (human begings) are motivated to create media that extend across space and time. This leads to stage (b). But we pay a price for this extension: the alphabet is great at disseminating and preserving information, but its letters look like nothing in the real world. Telegraph sends data across the Earth instantly, but in electrical encodings that are even further removed from reality. This, in turn, leads to ... stage (c), in which we attempt to continue to great extension across space and time of stage (b), but in a way that recaptures elements of the natural world present in stage (a) but lost in stage (b). So: telegraph is replaced by the more natural telephone; photography and TV change from black-and-white to color; etc. I'll leave it to you to think about how the Web substantiates this theory....
And, of course, there are many complexities -- and seeming exceptions, which aren't really -- to this theory. I explain it all -- and offer lots more examples and predictions -- in "The Soft Edge." And I'll be back with more in a few hours (though, for those of you reading this any time after today, it will no doubt seem to you like I was hardly gone at all.)
MsgId: *emedia(162)
Date: Wed Sep 24 14:26:48 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 206.175.195.5
While Paul is eating lunch I'll say hello ... Tina Vozick here. Actually Paul's doing a nationally-syndicated radio interview right now -- so if any of you hear a Bronx voice talking away about the evolution of media and "The Soft Edge" ... you know who it is! Let us know if you hear him on any of his interviews -- especially those of you up at 4:00 AM in Denver ... well, =someone= has to fill the time! Great to see so many old friends and new ones here - hope you all have as good a time as we are! To read the whole event, change the "history" number below to 200 ... All best, Tina
MsgId: *emedia(163)
Date: Wed Sep 24 14:58:20 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 208.137.255.107
Paul, I tried to post a longer vers of this querry & got a "server error" in reply. Anyway, Do you think that we are simply trying to regain some lost "lifelike" communications environment; or are we actually going beyond this and creating "enhanced" communications environments? Mike Byron
MsgId: *emedia(164)
Date: Wed Sep 24 15:24:34 EDT 1997
From: Paul_Levinson At: 206.175.221.218
Perceptive question, Mike (and, welcome back!): I think the very nature of stage "c" -- extension across time and space, as well as more lifelike systems -- is an enhancement, not just a re-creation, of a lost condition. Because, after all, in the original lost condition, our communication is unextended -- limited by the boundaries of space & time (which is what pushes the development of technological media in the first place).And speaking of limits: I think the error message was generated because this system can only take about 8 lines of text per message -- brevity is the soul of wit!
Hiya honey (that's to Tina -- who at this very moment is driving to school to pick up the kids...) We have all the bases covered in the Vozick-Levinson household -- including even someone (in this case, Tina) to sign on during lunch. In addition to wolfing down a sandwich, though, I was doing something very constructive in the last hour, which I'll talk about in my next post.
I had a marvelous interview, about 40 minutes ago, with Vikki Robbins who does the "Sunday Magazine" talk show on Dallas' top-rated FM radio station, KZPS. Of course, the topic of the evolution of magazines came up, and I mentioned Omni OnLine and our online chat here the other night in particular as excellent examples of some of the new futures for magazines online. (I'm not sure when the interview will be aired -- actually, no doubt on a Sunday!) Vicki -- if you're logging on here and read this, hi again!
And while I'm here, let me tackle at least another question from Monday night: Dave asked a very good question (M21) about why I state my predictions with such confidence, and I gave a somewhat flip answer in M23. But here's more: Predictions are in fact notoriously unreliable. History is littered with mistaken predictions. Many negative -- such as Hertz's view that radio would [Hertz's view that radio would] never be possible -- it would a transmission tower as wide as a continent, he thought -- and positive ones, such as many premature jubilations (going back to the 1920s) about the videophone [see my exchange with Mike Byron from Monday night for more on that]. So the truth is, although I'm confident indeed about the things I say about the emergence of online media in "The Soft Edge," all of these predictions should be understood with the proviso that explaining what already happened is very much easier than predicting what will be. But that said, it is gratifying to see some of the things Connect Ed was doing in the mid-1980s now coming to be world-wide via the Web. And I'll be back later [I have an excellent student thesis to read ... one of the real pleasures of the professorial life!]
Back with a response to another unanswered good question, and then I'm off to watch the new Law & Order (but to return in the next day or two to respond to a few more questions, and sow a little more confusion....)
Dave in M41 likes my point in "The Soft Edge" about the Internet empowering the audience to become authors, but wonders what we can do to make sure the Web doesn't waste that potential (or have it squandered by commercial interests: I think Dave raises a very good point, and I'm not sure what we can do about it. One of the main thrusts of "The Soft Edge" is that although we have some general control over the evolution of media, that guidance doesn't extend to more pinpoint, economic-specific goals (such as keep the Net free of -- or less tethered by -- commercial interests). If there are powerful reasons -- say, the dictates of a free-market economy -- that sway the Web to become more commercial, then that's what it will become.
The only real way of stopping commercial interests is via government intervention -- and that "cure" is surely far worse than the problem. But I don't think the situation is hopeless, by any means. Commerciality can sometimes -- maybe even often -- result in profound benefits. The fact that radio and TV cost people nothing -- even with the cost of commercials factored in -- is a real benefit for many people.
My prediction is that when things settle a bit more on the Web, we'll see it a lot more commercial than it is today, but the tradition of free information will be too deeply entrenched to be eradicated -- and, in fact, we'll see commercial interests working to fit in old and new ways with that new tradition. But as I also said earlier today, predictions are always hazardous. (But I'll be back manyana....)
Hi again Folks -- Back with some concluding answers and thoughts (with apologies for the last "blank," and for repeating the first sentence in my two comments before). Joe raised the issue of effective communication in education his M52. We discussed the benefits of synchronous communication (both online and the classroom) cs asynchronous communication (online) last Monday evening, but I'd like to again emphasis the following point: Asynchronous communication conveys the great benefit of allowing everyone to communicate. Indeed, as Joe aptly puts it in his M52, asynchronous communication "requires" students to communicate. Synchronous online communication, of course, also requires people to communicate -- or else, no one will know they are in attendance -- but the fast pace of synchronous communication works against that requirement, by making it very difficult for everyone to communicate.
The upshot, I think, is that if we compare in-person education, online synchronous education, and online asynch education, the last category is most apt to result in the most sustained communication from the greatest number of students. Of course, communication isn't the only factor in education, but it's certainly a key.
Turning to other questions: Dave (M53) asks if the Internet might lose out, like small cable stations, because the Internet doesn't have the marketing muscle behind it. My response: I'm not worried. Because -- to paraphrase the cop in that great scene in "Heat," when the cops are trying to get Val Kilmer's wife to turn on him: "This kind of stuff here sells itself". What I mean is: I think the value of online communication, and the Internet, is self-evident to anyone who values the written word. And, as I argue throughout "The Soft Edge," history shows that many people do -- despite the unfounded concern of some educators that electronic media are strangling the written word. Literacy, to the contrary, is at an all-time high -- and the Internet both supports and enhances this.
Further answer to Michael Burstein's M49 question on how "The Soft Edge" engages the work of Isaac Asimov: In addition to a major chapter ("Artificial Intelligence in Real Life") devoted to the issues he raised in his robot stories, "The Soft Edge" also examines the Foundation series as hypertext in the slow motion of print -- or hypertext a bit before its time. What I'm getting at here are the decisions readers must make about which order to read the Foundation series... Depending upon what the novels are read -- publication order, or event order -- the reader is fashioning his/her own series, in the same way we do when we string to together a series of texts via hypertext. "The Soft Edge" also considers Asimov's writing method, and the lessons it may have for an assessment of the impact of word processing on the writing process.
Rob Higgins asks in M68 -- and also elsewhere -- if my "anthropotropic" theory of media evolution isn't in some sense too human-centered, and thus restrictive of possible future developments which might go "beyond" our humanity. I plead guilty to the first charge -- my theory is human centered -- but as to the second, I'm very much a Kantian when it comes to what humans can and can't do, know, perceive in the universe... By which I mean: whatever the Universe may be or hold, the only aspects we can ever know or relate to or interact with are those which our human capacities are capable of engaging. If there are things that we are, in effect, totally color-blind to, then we will never have any knowledge of those things. However, our intellect is capable of understanding a lot more than we currently know, and, via technology, we are continually expanding this...
Thus, we of course can see things with our technologies that we cannot see with our naked eyes. But my/Kant's point still holds: since we invent and build the technologies, they still reflect, inevitably, their human origins. This is not necessarily a limitation -- though it's unlikely, I would think, that human mentalities are capable of understanding all aspects of existence.
And to my nephew Eric, who recently got engaged (hey, congrats!), and yet still had the time to log in here from Colorado! Eric in M88 says that he doesn't think any "community can be whole with just brain power". I agree completely -- indeed, in the last chapter of "The Soft Edge" -- "You Can't Touch that in Cyberspace" -- I talk about the irreducible (and wonderful) experiences that only flesh and the offline world can provide. (The more genteel examples include walking hand in hand on a beach with the wind blowing in your faces ... dining in a fine restaurant, sipping wine by flickering candlelight, etc.] Virtual communication is not likely to replace those profound aspects of community (what Merleau-Ponty calls "the metaphysics of flesh"). Nonetheless, many things in our world run primarily on abstract information, not flesh -- ranging, again, from education to bank transactions, to lots of aspects of conversation -- and these aspects of community, including the emotions they provide, can be done very well online.
And I'll save my last answer for Dave (M114), who was a great moderator with a whole bunch of fine questions: Dave asked what thoughts people might have on how we can deal with the free-wheeling challenges of the Web as it now is. I think the answer lies, again, in the human-centered view of media evolution -- and its use -- I offer in "The Soft Edge:" As William James pointed out: The world would be a hopelessly incomprehensible confusion to us, were it not for our consciousness, which is intrinsically in the business of sorting it all. And our mentalities are of course still very much engaged every time we're online. And I see no reason to think that our minds are not up to the task -- there's lot more confusion, still, in the world at large, in even our everyday lives, than there is online.
Indeed, I think the main danger is from people and institutions -- well-meaning and maybe not so -- such as government -- who try to control media and communication, and therein in their clumsy way risk impairing the very natural and human processes which are the best path to media -- and human -- improvement.
I truly think that online conferences such as this -- and the myrid conversations that go on online -- are part of that process... And, with that, I want to thank Ellen and Dave again for opening up this Forum to my ramblings -- and the great questions from all the participants. I hope you all read -- and enjoy -- "The Soft Edge." I look forward to talking to you about it more, in the months and years to come, online and offline, here, there, and everywhere....
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