Prime Time Replay:
Clark Adams
on Religion in Cyberspace
MsgId: *emedia(49)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:01:13 EST 1996
From: Paulette At: 152.163.233.33
Welcome to another session of E-Media. Tonight's guest is Clark Adams, representative for the Internet Infidels, who hold online forays into religion, anti-religion, and (sometimes) creating one's own. Clark, are you here?
MsgId: *emedia(50)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:02:49 EST 1996
From: Clark_Adams At: 199.201.186.109
Yes, I am here
MsgId: *emedia(51)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:04:49 EST 1996
From: Paulette At: 152.163.233.33
First, I think you should explain who the Internet Infidels are: How many of you are there? How did it begin? Who came up with the name?
MsgId: *emedia(54)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:07:16 EST 1996
From: Paulette At: 152.163.233.33
By the way, since it's an open chat, you're free to answer questions from me or from the audience, Clark.
MsgId: *emedia(57)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:09:50 EST 1996
From: Clark_Adams At: 199.201.186.109
The Internet Infidels were formed about two years ago out of the Atheist and Agnostic group at Texas A&M Univ. The Founder of the II's is Brett Lemoine, who was the president of that group. There are currently about 25 Internet Infidels and we are best know for maintaining the Secular Web, the largest WWW source for information about Secularism.
The name was created by Brett who like the alliteration :). The 25 Internet Infidels are scattered all throughout the world, but most are in the US.
MsgId: *emedia(60)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:11:39 EST 1996
From: iguana At: 198.120.32.27
Were your lives imperiled being Atheists & Agnostics in Texas A&M?!!?
MsgId: *emedia(62)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:12:16 EST 1996
From: Paulette At: 152.163.233.33
How does secularist interests and sites on the web compare to religious ones? Are there more Humanist sites, or have you found the Internet to be more "religious"?
MsgId: *emedia(65)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:15:47 EST 1996
From: Clark_Adams At: 199.201.186.109
Iguana: you'll have to ask Brett, who now lives in Silicon Valley.Paulette: I have found the Internet, and cyber-culture in general, to be much less religious than society in general (but I may be a little biased as I live in Mississippi :). Pre-WWW Internet even had a tinge of anti-religion, I have found. Also, the newsgroup, alt.atheism is read by far more people than read any religion newsgroup (last time UUnet took stats anyway).
MsgId: *emedia(66)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:16:45 EST 1996
From: Paulette At: 152.163.233.33
The reason why I was interested in your site is because of the range of debates you present there. You have the Humanist POVs--but there's also discussion of other religions, with more impartial outlooks, however. Have you ever gotten into arguments with a pro-religious group?
MsgId: *emedia(68)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:22:01 EST 1996
From: Clark_Adams At: 199.201.186.109
Paulette: The Infidels have sponsored debates featuring noted atheist philosophers opposing noted theist philosophers, and this is one of our minor goals. There is a plethora of religious debate on the Internet, from USENET newsgroups (like the group I moderated alt.atheism.moderated) to IRC channels (like DALnet's #atheism). These debates vary greatly in quality, but the Internet is an excellent forum for all points to be heard and hashed out.
MsgId: *emedia(64)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:15:35 EST 1996
From: buckaroo At: 198.69.131.162
Clark, David from Arlington Virginia. Answer this at your convenience. How has the internet affected atheism, on a social level as well as an intellectual level. Thanks.
MsgId: *emedia(69)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:22:44 EST 1996
From: Paulette At: 152.163.233.33
How did you become involved with the Internet Infidels, Clark? From TX to MS! Are you originally from the "Bible Belt" yourself?
MsgId: *emedia(70)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:23:05 EST 1996
From: guest At: 204.171.32.31
What is your web address?
MsgId: *emedia(71)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:24:09 EST 1996
From: iguana At: 198.120.32.27
Basically, it sounds like you all take the high ground in the disucssions you sponsors, or try to.
MsgId: *emedia(72)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:24:20 EST 1996
From: guest At: 204.171.32.31
eff net and undernet also have #atheism channels on irc.
MsgId: *emedia(73)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:25:35 EST 1996
From: Clark_Adams At: 199.201.186.109
David: on an intellectual level, I think the Internet gives an excellent opportunity for atheism, humanism, etc. to get heard, when traditional media tends to ignore it. I think a lot of misconceptions about atheism (like we're all devil worshippers :) are countered nicely on the net. On a more social level, the Internet allows for people to be "grouped" by interest rather than by geography. Many atheists I know had never met another atheist except on the net. Many atheist friendships, romances, and even 3 marriages (that I'm aware of) occurred because of the net.
MsgId: *emedia(74)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:25:52 EST 1996
From: guest At: 128.2.120.29
Don't forget Chatnet's new #atheism! :)
MsgId: *emedia(76)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:27:42 EST 1996
From: guest At: 204.171.32.31
Never met an atheist!? Come on now we are not THAT rare. Of course in a religious society it CAN be dangerous to admit atheism...
MsgId: *emedia(77)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:28:22 EST 1996
From: Vanessa At: 204.149.231.22
A lot of times, the net becomes a really big support group, especially for those of us stuck in the bible belt. :)
MsgId: *emedia(78)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:28:26 EST 1996
From: Clark_Adams At: 199.201.186.109
Secular Web - www.infidels.org.Paulette: I have lived in the South most of my life, though I hail from the Midwest. I have been involved with organized atheism since about 1990. I first learned about the Internet in 1992, as a student at the Univ of Georgia, and was quickly impressed by the atheists there (on alt.atheism), even though the Internet was effectively in its infancy then.
MsgId: *emedia(80)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:28:45 EST 1996
From: guest At: 129.71.36.27
Clark: how long have you been an Internet Infidel?
MsgId: *emedia(81)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:29:59 EST 1996
From: guest At: 130.91.124.42
Hello, Mr. Adams. Can you give a definition of Atheist or Agnostic? So I know i'm not misleading myself?
MsgId: *emedia(82)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:30:26 EST 1996
From: Vanessa At: 204.149.231.22
I had never met another atheist until I moved out of my home town at age 18. But then, I was from Don Wildmon's town.
MsgId: *emedia(83)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:30:32 EST 1996
From: guest At: 204.171.32.31
What "nick" do you use on IRC Clark? (I usually use Mr_Moore as I am Kenneth L. Moore)
MsgId: *emedia(84)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:31:55 EST 1996
From: Clark_Adams At: 199.201.186.109
I have been an Internet Infidel for about 2 years. I wasn't a "charter Infidel", but I became one soon after. As a followup to my bio info, my story, as well as a lot of other stories about growing up as an atheist is at the "Ex-Tian" (ex-Christian) home page http://www.dnaco.net/~rwdaniel/ex-tian.
MsgId: *emedia(85)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:33:13 EST 1996
From: buckaroo At: 198.69.131.162
Clark, I saw on CNN last week that there seems to be a general groundswell in theism on college campuses. Can the same be said for atheism/agnosticism, or are we destined to be social lepers as theism maintains its grasp?
MsgId: *emedia(86)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:33:22 EST 1996
From: grasshopper At: 206.30.241.44
Clark, how has chatting in IRC's (dal.net) atheism strengthened your beliefs or lack of beliefs?
MsgId: *emedia(87)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:33:23 EST 1996
From: iguana At: 198.120.32.27
Do you think this country would ever elect an avowed atheist? For president, that is :)
MsgId: *emedia(89)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:34:52 EST 1996
From: Paulette At: 152.163.233.33
I've found that to be very true, the misconception that atheists=Satanists. Do you find it easier to explain atheism or agnosticism to someone who doesn't trust either? Do the IIs offer something resembling "Sunday school," where those truly serious about atheism or agnosticism can, basically, study the two interests?
MsgId: *emedia(90)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:35:07 EST 1996
From: Clark_Adams At: 199.201.186.109
I HIGHLY recommend the Atheism Web and its FAQ files (wonderfully maintained by mathew and Jeff Lowder) for definitions of atheism, agnosticism, etc. The URL is www.infidels.org/news/atheism. But atheism is simply the lack of belief in god/s and agnosticism is the position that the god question is ultimately unknowable. The two positions are not mutually exclusive, and I consider myself both :). My nick on IRC is "GodFree".
MsgId: *emedia(91)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:36:41 EST 1996
From: guest At: 204.171.32.31
Kenneth L. Moore: GodFree! Good nick :)
MsgId: *emedia(92)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:37:03 EST 1996
From: guest At: 130.91.124.42
Thank you.
MsgId: *emedia(93)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:37:20 EST 1996
From: guest At: 152.163.231.202
How can we counter the effects which make our government more like an ecclestiastical state than that which our Founding Fathers intended?
MsgId: *emedia(94)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:38:38 EST 1996
From: guest At: 204.171.32.31
That is a good question. The founding fathers saw the danger in a religous government.
MsgId: *emedia(95)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:38:44 EST 1996
From: Paulette At: 152.163.233.33
"Buckaroo" asked a good question about atheism/agnosticism's strength in the US. Do you find the current "revival" trend to be true? Or are there more people who are deciding not to believe--as Nietzsche says, that "God is dead"?
MsgId: *emedia(96)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:39:48 EST 1996
From: Apostate At: 128.2.120.29
What other steps do you think could be helpful in educating the public about atheism and freethought?
MsgId: *emedia(97)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:40:24 EST 1996
From: guest At: 129.71.36.27
I used to lurk on Christian newsgroups defending the compatibility of evolution and Christianity. I also believed that the Bible wasn't entirely inerrant or divinely inspired. I considered myself an ultra-liberal Christian, until a post from Jeff Lowder attracted me to an emailing list about errancy/inerrancy. I met many atheists on this discussion list, and I found their views more consistent with mine than the views of Christians. That's when I really began to shed the mask and let my skepticism lead me where it would. I had never knowingly met an atheist until I got on the internet. The internet has given me a community I belong to. --Chad Docterman
MsgId: *emedia(98)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:40:51 EST 1996
From: guest At: 204.171.32.31
Kenneth L. Moore: Seperation of church and state says a lot about what the founding fathers thought about the matter, so why do churches still have a tax free status and why does our money say "In God We Trust"?
MsgId: *emedia(99)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:40:56 EST 1996
From: Clark_Adams At: 199.201.186.109
Paulette: One of our current projects at the Secular Web is to create a "Kid's/Parent's" page. We want to offer information on a rational, naturalisitc worldview to children (without "cramming atheism down a kid's throat"). Robby Berry (berry@coil.com) is heading up that project. Various atheistic and humanistic organizations around the country offer "kid stuff". The Dallas based "North Texas Church of Freethought" has done museum (fun science museums) outings, for example. As for an atheist President, I don't see the US electing one in the near future, as there is a lot of bigotry, but I would like to note that Australia has had one openly atheist Prime Minister and one avowed agnostic one in the past few years.
MsgId: *emedia(100)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:41:32 EST 1996
From: guest At: 206.144.246.35
(I'm not sure how to login to this with a nick etc, I'm Sethar) What do you think the current percentage of atheists/agnostics is, and the percentage of Christians, in the United States?
MsgId: *emedia(101)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:42:37 EST 1996
From: guest At: 129.71.36.27
The Internet gives atheists a voice and a community.
MsgId: *emedia(102)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:42:50 EST 1996
From: Paulette At: 152.163.233.33
GUESTS: Please address your QUESTIONS about atheism/agnosticism/religion to Clark Adams.
MsgId: *emedia(103)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:43:07 EST 1996
From: fractl At: 153.35.206.211
Christians are prolific in forming groups within society, yet apart from the internet, I haven't seen the same with atheists. Is this more the "personality" of the belief or a societal constraint, considering the misconceptions?
MsgId: *emedia(104)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:44:49 EST 1996
From: buckaroo At: 198.69.131.162
Clark: I'd like to add onto Sethar's good question... How many ppl do you think say they are theists, but don't really believe in it? I thought the reported figures for theists were extremely bloated.
MsgId: *emedia(105)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:46:33 EST 1996
From: Paulette At: 152.163.233.33
Do you think that atheism/agnosticism will ever be offered as a course in colleges? There's plenty of theology courses, and a few on combatting the belief that God doesn't exist. But are there school courses (either higher education or secondary/elementary) that actually offer atheism/agnosticism as a religious (or non-religious) choice? Is this something which the Internet Infidels are working on for the future?
MsgId: *emedia(106)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:47:07 EST 1996
From: guest At: 204.171.32.31
Kenneth L Moore: Clark what did you think of President Clinton (who was re-elected) saying that people have a right to "Not Believe"?
MsgId: *emedia(107)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:47:37 EST 1996
From: Clark_Adams At: 199.201.186.109
Paulette: I don't see an "atheistic revival" as much as I see a slow extinction of religion. It is already happening in Europe and Oceania. A very recent poll in the UK, for example showed that only 45% of the adults believe in God (compared to ~90% in the US). That number in countries like Finland and New Zealand, for example, is lower. I think the US will follow suit, but it will take a lot longer (we were among the last countries to abolish slavery too, but we followed suit there too). The Internet, I think, is help contributing to this as things like the Secular Web, newsgroups, etc. are offering sound, scholarly critique of a religious worldview where none was offered before.
MsgId: *emedia(108)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:48:43 EST 1996
From: guest At: 152.163.233.65
Can you explain/give a reason/rationalization as to why gays still suport & participate in myths when one of the most prominent ones in this country states that gawd abhors "queers". i.e.l to support such a mythical book, if it is the word of gawd, then then you cannot have it both ways. A thing can not both be and not be sat the same time. So if that is the word of gawd, then he must find you an abomination.
MsgId: *emedia(109)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:48:56 EST 1996
From: guest At: 204.171.32.31
Kenneth L. Moore: Clark by the way Clinton made that statement during the debates.
MsgId: *emedia(110)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:49:08 EST 1996
From: guest At: 129.71.36.27
Atheist groups are rarer because we represent only 10% of the population, and because of the stigma of atheism. Also, since most people are raised in religious homes, it takes an independent mind to counter the indoctrination. Those who are independent enough to reject religion aren't likely to join organizations. --Chad D.
MsgId: *emedia(111)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:51:39 EST 1996
From: Vanessa At: 204.149.231.22
(in re: the number of xtians / theists in the US) I think a lot of people are still xtians only b/c it has never occurred to them to really study their religion.
MsgId: *emedia(112)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:51:42 EST 1996
From: fractl At: 153.35.206.211
Is the percentage of atheists on the internet higher than the world at large?
MsgId: *emedia(113)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:52:46 EST 1996
From: guest At: 129.71.36.27
What is the biggest problem facing atheists today?
MsgId: *emedia(114)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:52:52 EST 1996
From: Clark_Adams At: 199.201.186.109
The US is about 10% atheist/agnostic/non-religious. Most polls tend to hover at that. Churches have been known to bloat their figures, but this is from poll data. That number is highest on the West Coast, and the very highest in the Pacific Northwest. Canada has many more atheists/agnostics/etc per capita than the US, as Agnus Reed polls (the Gallup of Canada) typically shows. As for atheist courses in schools, a handful of schools offer courses in humanism. I think SUNY-Buffalo does. I think atheism should be a viable philosophy course, as there have been many influential atheist/agnostic philosophers throughout the centuries.
MsgId: *emedia(115)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:53:27 EST 1996
From: guest At: 204.171.32.31
Kenneth L. Moore: "A slow extinction of religion"! That's music to my ears.
MsgId: *emedia(116)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:53:54 EST 1996
From: Paulette At: 152.163.233.33
Last two questions, Clark: Have you ever offered a discussion for atheists/agnostics who are pro-life? If you have, how did the session work out? Would you consider having such a session (or another one)? And, are the Internet Infidels political activists?
MsgId: *emedia(117)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:54:05 EST 1996
From: Mycroft At: 206.127.32.130
Re: separation of church and state: the phrase isn't from the Founding Fathers, but from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson 45 years or so after the Revolution.
MsgId: *emedia(118)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:54:06 EST 1996
From: Apostate At: 128.2.120.29
In re the gay question: I've met several gays on IRC that have become atheist after being persecuted by their respective religions. As for the rest, I think that the pull of religion is simply too strong.
MsgId: *emedia(119)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:56:17 EST 1996
From: guest At: 129.71.36.27
Mycroft: The word "trinity" does not appear in the Bible. Does this mean the concept isn't there?
MsgId: *emedia(120)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:56:47 EST 1996
From: guest At: 204.171.32.31
Kenneth L Moore: Clark - How do you explain that the last time that the church ruled and most were religious was during the dark ages? Is the USA slipping into another Dark Age? Are we an embarassment world wide?
MsgId: *emedia(121)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:58:54 EST 1996
From: Clark_Adams At: 199.201.186.109
I think that atheism is much better represented on the Internet than in the real world. In the beginning :), the 'net was predominanly computer geeks :), scientists, and college students who are much more atheistic than society as a whole. As the net becomes more mirrored to society as a whole (more "regular people getting on"), there are less atheists, per capita, I have found. However, atheism has established itself as a viable position in cyberculture, unlike most of the real world.
MsgId: *emedia(122)
Date: Mon Nov 18 21:58:57 EST 1996
From: guest At: 129.71.36.27
Teaching creationism in public schools would be an embarrassment for the US. I find it hard to believe that one of the most prosperous countries in the world is still fertile ground for religious superstition. Logic and critical thinking should be taught in every elementary school.
MsgId: *emedia(123)
Date: Mon Nov 18 22:01:16 EST 1996
From: guest At: 129.71.36.27
Clark: Is it worthwhile to debate fundamentalists on the internet? I have tried, and I give up. They always seem to resort to the "argumentum ad ALL CAPS" fallacy.
MsgId: *emedia(124)
Date: Mon Nov 18 22:02:14 EST 1996
From: Paulette At: 152.163.233.33
Thank you, Clark Adams, for a very enlightening discussion of Humanist and Secular Thought! Next week's guest is producer/writer/creator Toni Myers, who'll discuss her IMAX film about a space-bound city--"L5: First City in Space." November 25, 9-10 pm EST at E-Media.
MsgId: *emedia(126)
Date: Mon Nov 18 22:03:34 EST 1996
From: Clark_Adams At: 199.201.186.109
The Internet Infidels, as a group, are not political for a wider variety of reasons: we are international in scope, different II's have different political views, etc. We do agree on protecting the right to be non-religious and the "separation of church and state". I am aware of a group known as "Atheists for Life", based out of Fayetteville, Arkansas, but I know little about them. I think such a forum would be interesring, but the II's as a group don't take an official position with regard to abortion. Many II's are very active in this cause, and other causes, as individuals, however.
MsgId: *emedia(127)
Date: Mon Nov 18 22:03:56 EST 1996
From: Mycroft At: 206.127.32.130
Obviously the concept of a trinity isn't in the Bible, as it's not mentioned there at all. It's a concept that was added later, along with much else, which is one reason Newton refused to become a Master of Trinity. So, too, the "separation" concept, not really a part of the Constitution.
MsgId: *emedia(128)
Date: Mon Nov 18 22:04:03 EST 1996
From: guest At: 204.171.32.31
Kenneth L. Moore: Clark are you aware that the founding fathers WERE anti-religion and that the religious right is trying to re-write history to say it wasn't so?
MsgId: *emedia(129)
Date: Mon Nov 18 22:04:37 EST 1996
From: CindyLee At: 205.139.1.173
thanks clark!
MsgId: *emedia(130)
Date: Mon Nov 18 22:04:40 EST 1996
From: Clark_Adams At: 199.201.186.109
Thank you, Paulette. It was my pleasure.
MsgId: *emedia(131)
Date: Mon Nov 18 22:04:52 EST 1996
From: fractl At: 153.35.206.211
As atheists/agnostics tend to avoid groups (in line with their predilection to independant thought), what hope is there for a political voice? Is political correctness just a harbinger of a return to the dark ages?
MsgId: *emedia(132)
Date: Mon Nov 18 22:06:21 EST 1996
From: guest At: 152.163.233.65
Clark, Thanks from another AFS member. Apprecaite update on T. Jefferson, but the Founding Fathers did not want a state religion; otherwise they could have the most famous bachelor in drag or his imitator the AB of Canterbury. Cheers
MsgId: *emedia(133)
Date: Mon Nov 18 22:15:13 EST 1996
From: guest At: 152.163.233.65
The Creation "Science" people miss one of their best arguments, when observes the behavior of most politicians; it is abundantly clear that EVOLUTION has not happened!
MsgId: *emedia(134)
Date: Tue Nov 19 00:20:17 EST 1996
From: guest At: 129.89.70.58
Too bad the prefacing maerial on this URL did not even get Clark's name right. The wall of separation metaphor was used in England by someone named James Burgh in his book CRITO, 1767. Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists was written in 1802.
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