Prime Time Replay:
Richard Garfield
Creator of Magic: The Gathering
MsgId: *emedia(1)
Date: Mon Dec 1 20:10:34 PST 1997
From: DaveThomer At: 199.35.216.87
Tonight E-Media welcomes Richard Garfield, game designer at Wizards of the Coast and creator of Magic: The Gathering. Garfield had been designing games for a number of years when Wizards of the Coast asked him to create a game that required minimal equipment and could be played in a half hour or less. The result was Magic, the first trading card game. When the game was released by Wizards in 1993, it earned critical acclaim and tremendous success. A number of expansion sets and spinoffs have since been released, and Magic tournaments are now major events. Garfield joined Wizards of the Coast full time in 1994 and is now a full-time game designer and coordinator for the Table Games Research and Development team.Good evening, everyone, and welcome to E-Media. I'm Dave Thomer, and our guest tonight is Richard Garfield, creator of MAGIC: THE GATHERING. The chat room is open, so you'll have your chance to talk to Richard in a few minutes. Please be sure to click "Pause before typing" and sign your name, otherwise you will be identified only as "guest." Hello, Richard, and welcome.
MsgId: *emedia(9)
Date: Mon Dec 1 20:58:58 PST 1997
From: Garfield At: 199.238.207.2
Hello - thanks for having me.
MsgId: *emedia(10)
Date: Mon Dec 1 20:59:59 PST 1997
From: DaveThomer At: 199.35.216.87
My first question is about the actual process of designing a game. Most players become familiar with a game after the rules have already been hammered out and most of the kinks are taken care of -- how do you turn a concept into a working game?In Magic, for example, I've often wondered about something like banding -- the rules make perfect sense once they're explained to you, but how did you come up with them in the first place and decide, "This is how this is going to work?" (For anyone not familiar with the game -- banding is a method by which a player can combine certain creatures he or she controls to attack or defend against an opponent.)
MsgId: *emedia(14)
Date: Mon Dec 1 21:01:20 PST 1997
From: Garfield At: 199.238.207.2
I turn a concept into a working game through a long long evolutionary process. I make many many versions of the game and pick and choose among them for the game design elements that work, while attempting to cull the weak ones. 99% of my game design is cutting room floor.For rules like banding, where they aren't so natural at first often what is happening is there is something being modelled in "real life" which I am attempting to reflect in the game. So in banding it was trying to get some sense of creatures "working together" in a sensible, tactical manner.
MsgId: *emedia(19)
Date: Mon Dec 1 21:04:21 PST 1997
From: DaveThomer At: 199.35.216.87
How do you know what does and doesn't 'work?' What are some of the problems of a weak game, and how do you fix them?By extension, I guess I'm asking, what is it that makes a GOOD game? All I know is that I know one when I play one, but that doesn't sound like it'd be very helpful in the design process.
MsgId: *emedia(26)
Date: Mon Dec 1 21:08:21 PST 1997
From: Garfield At: 199.238.207.2
Knowing a good game is an obsession of mine. It is a really tricky thing, because most people decide a good game is one that they enjoy (certainly a sensible first measure). The problem is that a LOT of a games enjoyability can come from the players rather than the game, and separating that is hard. Hence - I use a lot of people to playtest and I think a lot about absolutes in game design, that is how long it takes, whether you have a lot of decisions, or few, whether that is too many or too few, whether each rule in the game adds enough to justify it cluttering the players mind.
MsgId: *emedia(25)
Date: Mon Dec 1 21:07:44 PST 1997
From: guest At: 152.163.207.137
Do you play Magic that often? If so, how often do you play and who do you play against? Daihakusei
MsgId: *emedia(28)
Date: Mon Dec 1 21:11:32 PST 1997
From: Garfield At: 199.238.207.2
Do I play magic often: Yes, it is easily the game I play the most. I still play a lot of other games, because my main pleasure comes in variety of game. But I always come back to magic because it has so much variety in it.I play with folks at wizards, and when I visit our game center or game conventions. I usually play sealed, though I favor draft and do that a lot also. Recently I played in my first constructed tournament since . . . 1992?
MsgId: *emedia(30)
Date: Mon Dec 1 21:12:53 PST 1997
From: guest At: 152.163.207.137
If you could create the game again, would you have done anything diffently?
MsgId: *emedia(35)
Date: Mon Dec 1 21:16:19 PST 1997
From: Garfield At: 199.238.207.2
What would I do different for magic: I would sacrifice some of the breadth I allowed myself as a designer in favor of a more uniform simplicity I would have NOT used rarity as any sort of power control. However - overall though I made mistakes, I really feel comfortable that we made the best calls at the time. We were flying in the dark a LOT.
MsgId: *emedia(29)
Date: Mon Dec 1 21:11:50 PST 1997
From: guest At: 199.238.207.2
What do you see as the future of Magic, or WotC for that matter?
MsgId: *emedia(37)
Date: Mon Dec 1 21:18:22 PST 1997
From: Garfield At: 199.238.207.2
Future of Magic: I think the future holds more game play per rule, and a tighter set of rules. The tournament scene has increased the discernment (yuck) of our players - they demand a lot.Future of WotC: What I hope is that WotC's stated goal of making games as big as the movies comes at least a little bit true. I think they could be - certainly see no rational reason why not. If that is the case then you will see a lot of high quality games being produced - since there will be the player base. If not - there will be some but mostly it will be making the best of magic & D&D
MsgId: *emedia(34)
Date: Mon Dec 1 21:15:04 PST 1997
From: DaveThomer At: 199.35.216.87
Would you say the variety is one of the things that set Magic apart? I used to play with my roommate all the time, and we could easily spend hours playing because I'd want to try a new deck I had built, and then he had to figure out which of HIS decks would be the best response, which sometimes led to these marathon deck-building sessions where we didn't play any actual games . . . it always struck me that I had at least a small hand in creating the game I was going to play at that moment, just because there were so many possibilities. The question is, how do you keep creating new possibilities?
MsgId: *emedia(41)
Date: Mon Dec 1 21:24:12 PST 1997
From: Garfield At: 199.238.207.2
Variety in Magic: A lot of the game variety is, as you mention, deck design (or drafting or stripping). These provide endless game challenges. How we keep it interesting is by changing the environment which happens naturally over time through the addition of cards, but also from cards dropping out of the environment. The heart of Magic is a modular game system and the variety comes from the modularity.
MsgId: *emedia(33)
Date: Mon Dec 1 21:14:09 PST 1997
From: guest At: 207.18.94.66
What happened to phasing. Why isn't there any phasing cards in Tempest. Will there be any more phasing cards. bob
MsgId: *emedia(45)
Date: Mon Dec 1 21:27:30 PST 1997
From: Garfield At: 199.238.207.2
Phasing: There are two forces operating with the introduction of cool new mechanics. If we do it a lot the game will ultimately be so ornate that new people won't join, and old players will start wearing out. If we don't then there may be stagnation. Our solution - introduce new mechanics like phasing and shadow and focus on them for a year, then phase them out, maybe temporarily, maybe for good. Who knows?
MsgId: *emedia(44)
Date: Mon Dec 1 21:26:59 PST 1997
From: DaveThomer At: 199.35.216.87
Do you ever worry that people might become less interested in the game when they find out that cards they've used since they started playing are no longer usable? Were there any problems moving from fourth to fifth edition, for example?
MsgId: *emedia(47)
Date: Mon Dec 1 21:34:16 PST 1997
From: Garfield At: 199.238.207.2
Card Usability: There has always been the worry that people wouldn't like finding their cards "unplayable" after time. Unfortunately we were immediately put in that situation if we wanted to keep the game fun and make it tournament viable. The game is definitely NOT fun if someone wins by going first and card design errors lead to that. We are trying to keep as many old cards as possible playable through formats like extended. Also, as always - you can play however you like with your pals like any other game!
MsgId: *emedia(51)
Date: Mon Dec 1 21:38:09 PST 1997
From: DaveThomer At: 199.35.216.87
What kind of errors result in a card being pulled? Is it that the card itself is flawed, or that changes in the existing set of cards have created a problem?
MsgId: *emedia(54)
Date: Mon Dec 1 21:44:18 PST 1997
From: Garfield At: 199.238.207.2
Pulling cards: (restrictions in tournament environment) Our first concern is maximizing the number of deck types in play. If EVERYONE plays the shmoo card then the shmoo card decreases deck variety. But we have a very hands off approach - and want to allow players maximum opportunity to overcome decks themselves and use the cards they have. On our website we will have these and other philosophies posted soon.
MsgId: *emedia(42)
Date: Mon Dec 1 21:24:43 PST 1997
From: DaveThomer At: 199.35.216.87
Earlier tonight I saw the TV ad for Magic again, and was struck by how much of a contrast Magic is with what we usually hear describe as the future of entertainment. (Thus proving that advertising can be highly effective . . .) Cardboard playing cards give us much more of an opportunity to be active and creative than millions of dollars of high-tech video, audio and computer equipment . . . how well do you think the message is getting out? What are the challenges in creating a player base?
MsgId: *emedia(46)
Date: Mon Dec 1 21:30:56 PST 1997
From: Garfield At: 199.238.207.2
Our Advertisements: I like the ads - and think they do the three key things we want them to do:
1 - give a flavor or a style
2 - help bust the notion of game player as nerd
3 - let people know it is a game
I think the biggest challenge to increasing player base IS overcoming game playing stigma: games are for kids, nerds, etc.
MsgId: *emedia(36)
Date: Mon Dec 1 21:17:08 PST 1997
From: guest At: 152.163.207.137
Are there any games, works of literature, etc. which were very influential in the creation of Magic? Daihakusei
MsgId: *emedia(50)
Date: Mon Dec 1 21:37:37 PST 1997
From: Garfield At: 199.238.207.2
Game and Literary Influences on Magic: There are many influences, more from games than from literature. Literature: Tolkein, traditional fairy tales and myths, a few sporadic things like niven Games: Cosmic Encounter, D&D, Warlock (old games workshop game), Titan, King of the Table Top, Marbles
MsgId: *emedia(49)
Date: Mon Dec 1 21:36:05 PST 1997
From: DaveThomer At: 199.35.216.87
Magic's popularity resulted in a number of spinoffs -- books, comics, etc. (I'm currently hooked on the computer game myself.) How well do you think the world of Magic has translated into other media?
MsgId: *emedia(52)
Date: Mon Dec 1 21:40:30 PST 1997
From: Garfield At: 199.238.207.2
How well has magic translated to other media: I am not really happy so far, there are exceptions but by far and away the best spin off has been microprose's game, which is good because it is so close to magic. Hopefully this will change in the future since the writers and designers are now working together much more closely.
MsgId: *emedia(43)
Date: Mon Dec 1 21:25:23 PST 1997
From: guest At: 199.238.207.2
How much room to move is there in the paradyme of the Trading Card Game? Seems most TCG are based on Magic one way or the other . . . Can the dynamic be shifted to keep it interesting? Hiro
MsgId: *emedia(56)
Date: Mon Dec 1 21:47:17 PST 1997
From: Garfield At: 199.238.207.2
How much room in TCG market, most are designed close to magic: I am not sure how much room there is, at first I thought this was like the Boardgame, and there would be as much variety. However, now I see that because of the difficulty with learning TCGs and getting out of them the incredible range of play they offer takes so much work on the players part that it is more limited than I thought. I pulled out the stops on Netrunner to mediocre success, it is a very different game. I choked back on battletech - and players loved that they could learn the game in 5 minutes. I am sad because I like netrunner a lot. But it makes a lot of sense.
MsgId: *emedia(53)
Date: Mon Dec 1 21:43:50 PST 1997
From: guest At: 152.163.207.137
What makes you want to reprint some old cards (i.e. Icy Manipulator) and make weaker versions of some? (Black lotus, lotus vale)
MsgId: *emedia(60)
Date: Mon Dec 1 21:52:21 PST 1997
From: Garfield At: 199.238.207.2
Reprinting Cards: Again, the main thing is variety of game. If a card is broken - that is - contributes to decks which reduce the effective size of the relevant deck pool significantly, then it will never be reprinted unless the environment changes enough. Black lotus is in this group. Other cards are only dropped to allow us to create other cards in their place, and those cards may be reprinted.
MsgId: *emedia(58)
Date: Mon Dec 1 21:50:42 PST 1997
From: DaveThomer At: 199.35.216.87
What are your own goals for the future? Do you have any ideas you think might top Magic, or are you going to fovus on improving the game as much as possible? Besides breaking down stereotypes, how do you think the gaming industry can introduce more people to the possibilities of games? Computer and arcade games never seem to lack for attention because of the novelty and the technology -- do you think there's any way to get more "conventional" games in the public eye like that?
MsgId: *emedia(61)
Date: Mon Dec 1 21:56:06 PST 1997
From: Garfield At: 199.238.207.2
My goals for future: I don't have any "magics" queued up - and think it would be way optimistic to think seriously that I could do it again. But I am thinking about games a lot and designing games in a wide variety of milliue, board, card, strategy, rpg, miniature, computer games are all being tinkered with. I have the luxury of not having to pay attention to Magic too much because the team working on it is excellent.
MsgId: *emedia(59)
Date: Mon Dec 1 21:50:44 PST 1997
From: guest At: 199.238.207.2
About the patent: even if WotC doesn't leverage a large royalty to other game companies, do you fear that other companies my be intimidated to take the first step, thus reducing the market in general? And do you feel that the players themselves think badly of WotC for taking what might be viewed as a monopolistic step? Hiro
MsgId: *emedia(62)
Date: Mon Dec 1 22:00:19 PST 1997
From: Garfield At: 199.238.207.2
Patent: I am not sure about how this will affect things. I am not even sure I like the concept of patent in the game industry. I just tend to prefer the picture I have of the game industry with patents rather than without. I think the tendancy of companies to come out with new flavors of games and slapping existing mechanics on them has devalued what I LOVE in games which is the mechanics. I have even had major hobby companies tell me that the underlying game doesn't really matter - it is only motif. But I am not a lawyer or patent historian so my confidence is soso. My main business objective is to be kept out of business except where it helps me make better games. Hence while supportive of WotC in this regard I am not a prime mover.<
MsgId: *emedia(63)
Date: Mon Dec 1 22:02:28 PST 1997
From: DaveThomer At: 199.35.216.87
Well, we're just about out of time for the evening. Before we go, Richard, any final thoughts on gaming in general or Magic in particular?
MsgId: *emedia(65)
Date: Mon Dec 1 22:04:39 PST 1997
From: guest At: 12.67.70.110
This has been a great topic. I hope you'll come back again for another OMNI Chat. --PJN
MsgId: *emedia(66)
Date: Mon Dec 1 22:06:25 PST 1997
From: Garfield At: 199.238.207.2
Final thoughts on Games: The longer I am professionally involved with games the more I am convinced they could, they should have the stature of sports, because they are mental sports. This belief is basically what I am modelling my professional life around.Thanks for the interest - Ciao
MsgId: *emedia(68)
Date: Mon Dec 1 22:08:44 PST 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.14.7
Thanks Dave, Richard and our audience. You've all been great.
MsgId: *emedia(69)
Date: Mon Dec 1 22:10:07 PST 1997
From: DaveThomer At: 199.35.216.87
Thank you, and good luck to you with Magic and all your future games. I'd like to thank Richard Garfield for being here tonight, and I'd like to thank everyone in the audience for watching and participating. We'll see you next week here on E-Media; in the meantime, check out www.omnimag.com for a complete schedule of this week's Prime Time programming and much more. Good night!
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