Prime Time Replay:
Greg Sandow
on the Linda "Cortile" Abduction Case
MsgId: *high_strangeness(6)
Date: Tue Apr 1 22:00:29 PST 1997
From: Dennis At: 206.127.4.123
Welcome to High Strangeness! Our guest tonight is Greg Sandow, a mild-mannered New York music critic turned ufologist. Hi, Greg!
MsgId: *high_strangeness(7)
Date: Tue Apr 1 22:01:23 PST 1997
From: greg At: 198.83.19.111
hi, Dennis! Glad to be here. But....mild-mannered??????
MsgId: *high_strangeness(9)
Date: Tue Apr 1 22:01:53 PST 1997
From: Dennis At: 206.127.4.123
Greg, speaking as a music critic, how in the hell did you become interested in UFOs? Did you see one in the middle of a rock concert?
MsgId: *high_strangeness(10)
Date: Tue Apr 1 22:02:47 PST 1997
From: greg At: 198.83.19.111
I'd rather see one at a symphonic event....there would be SO much more panic! It's an interest I've had most of my life, Dennis...just was fascinated by UFO books.
MsgId: *high_strangeness(12)
Date: Tue Apr 1 22:04:48 PST 1997
From: Dennis At: 206.127.4.123
Symphony, grunge, bash, whatever, still somehow you became interested in UFOs. Is enchanted the word?
MsgId: *high_strangeness(13)
Date: Tue Apr 1 22:06:02 PST 1997
From: greg At: 198.83.19.111
Well, I'd only be enchanted if I believed everything I read. Luckily, I don't. As for how I became a Ufologist....didn't YOU make me one?
MsgId: *high_strangeness(14)
Date: Tue Apr 1 22:07:16 PST 1997
From: Dennis At: 206.127.4.123
So at some point you decide to leap in with both feet and tackle one of the most controversial UFO cases of all times, the Linda Cortile abduction. Why, again, because of proximity of the main investigator of same, Budd Hopkins?
MsgId: *high_strangeness(16)
Date: Tue Apr 1 22:09:46 PST 1997
From: greg At: 198.83.19.111
Budd and I became friendly, partly because we live only a few blocks from each other. But it was Jerry Clark, editor of International UFO Reporter, who asked me to take this case on. Maybe he felt I already had access to Budd, who can sometimes be prickly.
MsgId: *high_strangeness(17)
Date: Tue Apr 1 22:13:05 PST 1997
From: Dennis At: 206.127.4.123
To summarize the case, Linda is reportedly abducted from her 12-story apartment, an abduction which is witnessed by Richard & Dan, security personnel, who seem to be guarding the then current Secretary Genral of the UN. How much evidence does Budd have for this basic scenario? (If you aren't aware of the Linda case, details can be found in "Witnessed: The True Story of the Brooklyn Bridge Abductions," by Budd Hopkins.)
MsgId: *high_strangeness(18)
Date: Tue Apr 1 22:19:10 PST 1997
From: greg At: 198.83.19.111
Budd has what we might call uneasy evidence. The people you've mentioned have never been willing to meet him. And a fourth witness, a retired woman, won't talk to anyone any more, not even Budd.Still, tapes of one of the security people and of the retired woman sound persuasive, and letters from all concerned look like letters from real people ... even including consistent kinds of personal mistakes.
As we both know, Dennis, this is hardly proof! But it does mean that if the case is a hoax, it's an extraordinarily good one -- better, I think, than any critic has yet realized.
MsgId: *high_strangeness(23)
Date: Tue Apr 1 22:24:54 PST 1997
From: Dennis At: 206.127.4.123
Are there any lessons we can learn from this case in terms of investigative reporting? As you know, the critics have been considerable. At some point we have to decide what constitutes evidence.
MsgId: *high_strangeness(24)
Date: Tue Apr 1 22:27:12 PST 1997
From: greg At: 198.83.19.111
One lesson is never to take anything for granted. I've found some things Budd asserts aren't true, and some things that critics assert aren't true, either.One big difficulty is that Budd won't release some of the main evidence ... letters from the witnesses, and tapes of their voices. How can anyone judge why he found it all convincing, without looking at all of that? Take the retired woman, who supposedly saw the abduction. Some critics don't even think she exists. But if you listen to her in phone calls with Budd, and in an extensive face to face meeting, that's hard to imagine. She sounds like exactly what she's supposed to be. But no one outside of Budd's circle has ever heard those tapes.
Linda Cortile herself is pretty persuasive ... but again, only if you spend a lot of time with her. I found she didn't necessarily accept my arguments in favor of the case. Once she told me flat out that I was wrong.
MsgId: *high_strangeness(27)
Date: Tue Apr 1 22:32:02 PST 1997
From: Dennis At: 206.127.4.123
I think we both agree, then, that while Hopkins may get a few things wrong, he isn't anywhere near the arena of a cult leader, such as the figure who just recently led 39 to their suicide deaths in San Diego. Care to comment on this issue yourself?
MsgId: *high_strangeness(29)
Date: Tue Apr 1 22:36:44 PST 1997
From: greg At: 198.83.19.111
I'd love to comment, especially since the cult leader was once an opera singer! I've worked in the opera business, so I feel I've got this guy coming and going.
MsgId: *high_strangeness(30)
Date: Tue Apr 1 22:38:24 PST 1997
From: Dennis At: 206.127.4.123
While waiting for your reply, pardon my previous segue ... I didn't mean to imply that Hopkins & Applewhite were in anyway connected. Only curious as to your thinking about recent events involving the latter and any possible connections. Is the UFO field completely blameless in this area?
MsgId: *high_strangeness(31)
Date: Tue Apr 1 22:38:52 PST 1997
From: greg At: 198.83.19.111
Seriously, though, those people were crazy. End of story. They seized on some UFO mythology, but then they might have embraced anything. What they did has nothing to do with serious UFO research.
MsgId: *high_strangeness(32)
Date: Tue Apr 1 22:40:47 PST 1997
From: Dennis At: 206.127.4.123
Please follow up the opera angle, too, if you haven't already!
MsgId: *high_strangeness(33)
Date: Tue Apr 1 22:45:21 PST 1997
From: Greg At: 207.115.1.161
The cult leader was an opera singer once, in your own state, Dennis. He sang with the Houston Grand Opera. I doubt the opera world is implicated here, though.
MsgId: *high_strangeness(34)
Date: Tue Apr 1 22:46:43 PST 1997
From: Dennis At: 206.127.4.123
The media has to have some handy, catchable hook on which to hang complex stories like the San Diego suicides, in this case, UFO cult. My take is that it could just as easily be headlined under religious freedom and right to suicide. Your take, and what impact do you think it will have on ufology as a whole? Kurt Cobain killed himself and that certainly didn't signal an end to rock and roll.
MsgId: *high_strangeness(35)
Date: Tue Apr 1 22:50:04 PST 1997
From: Greg At: 198.83.19.248
Paradoxically, this might help ufology. Lots of ufologists are being asked to comment by the media. The public may be astonished to find out how sensible they sound. (Even if WE know better.....just kidding!)The people closest to these cultists, in thought, anyway, are the channelers who supposedly channel aliens. But they're innocent in this, too. Most of them are sweet, good-hearted folks.
MsgId: *high_strangeness(37)
Date: Tue Apr 1 22:52:32 PST 1997
From: Dennis At: 206.127.4.123
We may be approaching our last question. Jacques Vallee, for one, has long been arguing for (or against!) just such a UFO cult. Have his warnings come to pass? Seems to me that this group was relatively small & insignificant (aside from the media coverage), all things considered. Conspicuous by their absence -- any political figures.
MsgId: *high_strangeness(38)
Date: Tue Apr 1 22:54:38 PST 1997
From: Greg At: 198.83.19.248
Oh, I agree with you. There's nothing much going on here, outside of the dramatic suicides. It reminds me of the controversies over heavy metal. Supposedly it would lead to all sorts of abuses, most of which never, ever happened.Does Vallee think government agents have a hand in this? His thinking sometimes runs that way. I wonder, too, if this isn't just another way for him to jab at ufologists who don't agree with him. Bet he'd love to pin this on researchers who don't meet his standards.
MsgId: *high_strangeness(40)
Date: Tue Apr 1 23:00:28 PST 1997
From: Dennis At: 206.127.4.123
You're wrong, Greg, when it comes to heavy metal: countless ears were abused! Still, we thank you for taking time to speak with us tonight. You may be interested to know that Greg has just completed a 2-part article on the Linda case which is runing in the IUR, International UFO Reporter, the quarterly publication of CUFOS, the Chicago-based Center for UFO Studies. For additional info, do a Web search for CUFOS. Thanks, Greg!
MsgId: *high_strangeness(41)
Date: Tue Apr 1 23:02:18 PST 1997
From: Greg At: 198.83.19.248
You're very welcome, Dennis, and we can just add metal to the subjects we argue about! It's been fun. Good night, everyone.
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