Prime Time Replay:
Dr. Larry Dossey
author of Be Careful What You Pray For
. . . You Just Might Get It
MsgId: *high_strangeness(1)
Date: Tue Nov 4 21:57:19 EST 1997
From: Moderator At: 168.100.204.161
Welcome to High Strangeness! My name is Patrick Huyghe and our guest tonight is Dr. Larry Dossey. The subject of our chat is Hexes, Curses and Spells. Have you ever put the "mojo" on someone? Have you ever prayed for the other team to miss the last second shot? Have you ever wished something awful might happen to your nagging boss? Have you ever prayed for a loved one's recovery? Larry Dossey's new book, "Be Careful What You Pray For . . . You Just Might Get It," ventures deep into the subject of prayer's intangible powers with a dramatic and important new exploration of what can and does happen when people use toxic prayers -- hexes, curses, and spells.Larry Dossey is the best-selling author of "Healing Words," "Prayer is Good Medicine," and many other books on medicine and the mind. He is the former chief of staff at Humana Medical City Dallas and former co-chair of the Panel on Mind/Body Interventions, Office of Complementary and Alternative Medicine, National Institutes of Health. He is currently executive director of the journal "Alternative Therapies" and an internationally renowned speaker on spirituality and medicine.
Before diving into tonight's subject, let's set the stage with a little summary of your previous book, "Healing Words," on the power of prayer. What did you conclude about prayer in that book? Does prayer really work? How good is the scientific evidence?
MsgId: *high_strangeness(4)
Date: Tue Nov 4 22:01:43 EST 1997
From: Larry_Dossey At: 207.172.75.204
The scientific evidence is abundant and compelling. Currently there are approximately 150 controlled studies examining the effect of distant intention and prayer in hospitals, clinics, and laboratories. These studies are of two types: they deal with the effects of prayer in humans and non-humans such as higher animals and microorganisms, such as bacteria, yeast, fungi, etc.
MsgId: *high_strangeness(5)
Date: Tue Nov 4 22:02:34 EST 1997
From: Moderator At: 168.100.204.161
You were suprised by the way some people reacted to your previous book. Why? What was their reaction?
MsgId: *high_strangeness(6)
Date: Tue Nov 4 22:06:18 EST 1997
From: Larry_Dossey At: 207.172.75.204
There is a powerful presumption in modern neuroscience that the effects of consciousness are totally confined to the brain and body. Therefore, evidence for intercessary prayer, which implies that consciousness can work outside the brain and body, can appear outrageous and blasphemous to certain folks. Moreover, the experimental studies strongly suggest that the effects of prayer are not confined to any specific religion. The data strongly suggests that noone has a monopoly on prayer. This fact offended certain religious organizations of the fundamentalist persuasion who believe they have indeed cornered on market on prayer.
MsgId: *high_strangeness(7)
Date: Tue Nov 4 22:06:59 EST 1997
From: Moderator At: 168.100.204.161
Your new book, "Be Careful What You Pray for," is really about hexes, curses, and spells, which you also call "negative prayer." This hints at a rather broader definition of prayer than most people use -- or are comfortable with. How exactly do you define prayer?
MsgId: *high_strangeness(8)
Date: Tue Nov 4 22:11:42 EST 1997
From: Larry_Dossey At: 207.172.75.204
I define prayer exceedingly broadly as communication with the absolute. This definition invites people to define for themselves what this communication might be and it also invites them to decide what the absolute may or may not be. I do not make a strong distinction between prayer and intentionality. In most religious traditions, prayer is generally the carrier, or vehicle, for intentions of one sort or another. Most people in our society find it impossible to pray without having some sort of intention. Therefore, although they are not identical, prayer and intentionality are certainly closely related. This is why I feel that experiments in distant intentionality are strongly related to the issue of intercessary, or distant, prayer.
MsgId: *high_strangeness(11)
Date: Tue Nov 4 22:13:12 EST 1997
From: Moderator At: 168.100.204.161
You state in your book that 5 percent of Americans have prayed for harm to come to others, according to a Gallop Poll. Did this figure surprise you when you first came across it? Is this what prompted you to write this book?
MsgId: *high_strangeness(12)
Date: Tue Nov 4 22:17:54 EST 1997
From: Larry_Dossey At: 207.172.75.204
The findings of the Gallup Poll actually stunned me. This indeed did prompt me to write the book along with another stimulus. In reviewing the studies of the positive effects of prayer in the laboratory, I came across several studies in which individuals could not only increase the growth rate of human tissue or microorganisms, but also were able to do the exact opposite -- inhibit them or actually kill them. I emphasize these were controlled, precise laboratory experiments. It seems obvious if one takes these experiments seriously that we do have a potential as human beings to harm living systems with our intentions, thoughts, wishes, and prayers. The experimental effects, when paired with the Gallup Poll findings, are sobering.
MsgId: *high_strangeness(13)
Date: Tue Nov 4 22:18:47 EST 1997
From: Moderator At: 168.100.204.161
Not only are there sorcerers among us, but most likely we are all socerers. You point out that even those who think they are saying positive prayers, such as for the recovery of a loved one, are actually engaged in negative prayer. Can you explain?
MsgId: *high_strangeness(16)
Date: Tue Nov 4 22:30:15 EST 1997
From: Larry_Dossey At: 207.172.75.204
Many people give off negative prayers unconsciously, for example, I received a letter from a woman who said: "Every time I say "Damn you!" to someone who cuts me off in traffic, I think I'm making a negative prayer. Or when I say "To Hell with you, this is a 'mini-curse'." I feel that these comments should be taken seriously in view of the laboratory evidence that negative thoughts containing hostile intentions can harm living tissue. Sometimes we pray negatively without realizing it. For example, people pray for an active immune system in order to avoid getting cancer.However, many diseases are caused not by too little immunity, but by too much immunity. Examples are the so-called Auto-immune Diseases such as rheumatoid arthritis, and some forms of thyroiditis, and anemia. We must question whether our prayers for a super-active immune system may in fact be self-curses in disguise.
MsgId: *high_strangeness(18)
Date: Tue Nov 4 22:31:51 EST 1997
From: Moderator At: 168.100.204.161
In what settings are prayers -- both negative and positive -- invoked most often?
MsgId: *high_strangeness(19)
Date: Tue Nov 4 22:38:58 EST 1997
From: Larry_Dossey At: 207.172.75.204
In ordinary interpersonal relationships. An example: Richard was a man who had wanted to be a novelist from his earliest teenage years. Twenty-five years later, however, he had not succeeded in getting anything published in spite of having immense talent as a writer. One Christmas he went home to visit his mother and reveals to her his disappointment. She listened and then said very sweetly, "Richard, I know what the problem is. Since you were a small boy, wanting to be a writer, I have prayed every night that God give you something better to do." Richard said: "Do you mean that my own mother has prayed nightly for twenty-five years for me actually to fail as a writer?" The mother became very angry and said: "Richard, I've done this for your own good! I've done this because I love you!" This mother was terrified that if Richard became a successful novelist, he would tell the family secrets in his novels. Richard entered psychotherapy. Three years later, he had a best-selling novel published. This story shows how people use prayer to manipulate and control others, often in the name of love. This is the most common expression of negative prayer.
MsgId: *high_strangeness(21)
Date: Tue Nov 4 22:40:57 EST 1997
From: Moderator At: 168.100.204.161
And outside of interpersonal relationships there is a lot of positive and negative prayer involved in sports. Do you realy think that prayers have an affect on the outcomes, like the world series?
MsgId: *high_strangeness(22)
Date: Tue Nov 4 22:43:23 EST 1997
From: Larry_Dossey At: 207.172.75.204
My verdict is out! My prayers for athletic victories have not been overwhelmingly successful.
MsgId: *high_strangeness(23)
Date: Tue Nov 4 22:45:34 EST 1997
From: Moderator At: 168.100.204.161
There are also a lot of positive prayers in healing obviously. But not so obviously many of the prayers from the medical profession are negative. Tell us about what happens in radiology departments?
MsgId: *high_strangeness(24)
Date: Tue Nov 4 22:50:16 EST 1997
From: Larry_Dossey At: 207.172.75.204
As a physician, I am fascinated by the power of words and how language used by physicians can function as a curse or a hex. The modern radiology department is one of the commonest sites for medical hexes. The patient is taken into a darkened room, with strange lights and sounds, with professionals wearing strange costumes. The patient is often instructed in very strange behaviors, such as "Don't move!" or "Don't breathe!" Professor Lalli at the Cleveland Clinic investigated hundreds of deaths which took place in the radiology department in reaction from the drugs used there and concluded that the underlying cause of almost all of them was sheer utter fear. These events should be taken seriously by both patients and physicians. These events clearly show that careless words can have life-or-death consequences.
MsgId: *high_strangeness(25)
Date: Tue Nov 4 22:50:53 EST 1997
From: Moderator At: 168.100.204.161
If what you are saying is correct -- if people are so sensitive to what doctors say -- then the mere announcement that a supposed medical "cure" actually does NOT work can have devasting consequence, can it not?
MsgId: *high_strangeness(26)
Date: Tue Nov 4 22:54:58 EST 1997
From: Larry_Dossey At: 207.172.75.204
Yes, indeed. There are classic cases of where people with cancer responded to drugs they believed in, but which later have proven to be worthless. When the final announcement was made that a particular drug was worthless, one patient actually was dead within 24 hours, although he had responded beautifully to the drug when he believed it was effective. This clearly shows that the power of drugs resides not only in the chemical itself, but also in the meaning that we invest in the substance.
MsgId: *high_strangeness(27)
Date: Tue Nov 4 22:55:25 EST 1997
From: Moderator At: 168.100.204.161
Where does the power behind prayer come from -- from the person saying the prayer or the Almighty? Or in terms of negative prayer, is the evil within us, or is it exterior?
MsgId: *high_strangeness(28)
Date: Tue Nov 4 23:00:15 EST 1997
From: Larry_Dossey At: 207.172.75.204
In my opinion, science is inadequate to answer this question. We can show that both positive and negative effects result from our intentions in prayers, but we are unable to explain the mechanism. However, many promising theories have been recently advanced. For example, Professor David Chalmers of UC-Santa Cruz suggests that consciousness is fundamental in the universe, perhaps on a par with matter and energy. Nobel physicist Brian Josephson has advanced a similar theory.In general, this type of theory, of which there are many other candidates, permit consciousness to create change in the state of the physical world at great distances from the brain and body. However, these are only theories and as yet, we have no generally-accepted explanation for how prayer works. This is not unusual in medicine. For centuries, we did not know how aspirin worked. In medicine, we often know that something works before we understand how. So it is with prayer.
MsgId: *high_strangeness(30)
Date: Tue Nov 4 23:01:26 EST 1997
From: Moderator At: 168.100.204.161
I know we are running out of time, but one last question, please: Your book might make people rather fearful of praying, as we may be inadvertantly participating in negative prayer. How do you recommend people should pray? Has your work on this book affected the way you pray?
MsgId: *high_strangeness(31)
Date: Tue Nov 4 23:05:56 EST 1997
From: Larry_Dossey At: 207.172.75.204
Although the problems with negative prayer are real, this is no reason to abandon prayer. We should, however, continually re-evaluate how we pray. All of the problems could be avoided by ceasing to attempt to micromanage our life and the lives of others through prayer. This can be done by praying not for something specific, but for higher wisdom, such as indicated in prayers such as "Thy will be done," or "May the highest good prevail," or "May the best thing happen in this situation." This would avoid our inflicting our own personal agendas on other persons in situations. Moreover, if we managed to pray from genuine compassion and love, we need not live in fear that we will use prayer unwisely.
MsgId: *high_strangeness(32)
Date: Tue Nov 4 23:06:24 EST 1997
From: Moderator At: 168.100.204.161
Thank you very much for being with us tonight, Larry Dossey (and also for your help Marilee). For High Strangeness, this is Patrick Huyghe. Goodnight!
MsgId: *high_strangeness(33)
Date: Tue Nov 4 23:08:00 EST 1997
From: Larry_Dossey At: 207.172.75.204
Goodnight, Patrick, and everyone. Let's do it again some time!
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