Prime Time Replay:
David Harry Grinspoon
on the Possibility of Life on Venus
MsgId: *infinities(1)
Date: Sun May 11 20:27:57 PDT 1997
From: Sherry_Baker At: 152.163.233.75
Welcome to "Infinities"..I'm Sherry Baker, Think of a fascinatingiplanet in our solar system other than Earth that might just have life-- or the remnants of life -- and that may hold all kinds of secrets and mysteries....do you think of Mars?
MsgId: *infinities(2)
Date: Sun May 11 20:29:16 PDT 1997
From: Sherry_Baker At: 152.163.233.75
My guest tonight is David Grinspoon. And he's here to tell us that Venus is every bit as fascinating as Mars... and may well have even more to teach us about other forms of non-Earth life than Mars.
MsgId: *infinities(3)
Date: Sun May 11 20:29:54 PDT 1997
From: Sherry_Baker At: 152.163.233.75
David, are you here yet?
MsgId: *infinities(4)
Date: Sun May 11 20:31:20 PDT 1997
From: Sherry_Baker At: 152.163.233.75
David is an professor of Astrophysical and Planetary Sciences at the University of Colrado. He has also studied Venus as a Principal Investigator for NASA's Planetary Atmospheres and Venus Data Program...
MsgId: *infinities(5)
Date: Sun May 11 20:32:19 PDT 1997
From: Sherry_Baker At: 152.163.233.75
He's also the author of Venus Revealed: A New Look Below the Clouds of Our Mysterious Twin Planet...
MsgId: *infinities(6)
Date: Sun May 11 20:32:42 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
Hello, can you hear me?
MsgId: *infinities(7)
Date: Sun May 11 20:33:23 PDT 1997
From: Sherry_Baker At: 152.163.233.75
While we're waiting for David Grinspoon, add your questions and comments about Venus....
MsgId: *infinities(8)
Date: Sun May 11 20:34:18 PDT 1997
From: Sherry_Baker At: 152.163.233.75
Hi, David ! Glad you're here ! Why has humankind been so fascinated with Venus through the ages?
MsgId: *infinities(9)
Date: Sun May 11 20:36:05 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
Several reasons in several ages...
MsgId: *infinities(10)
Date: Sun May 11 20:36:28 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
Its the brightest thing up there, moves in mysterious ways...
MsgId: *infinities(11)
Date: Sun May 11 20:36:54 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
Its the nearest planet to home, and the most Earthlike in many ways...
MsgId: *infinities(12)
Date: Sun May 11 20:37:27 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
AND... its still alive, like Earth and unlike most other places we know....
MsgId: *infinities(13)
Date: Sun May 11 20:37:51 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
and then there are those taunting and tantalizing clouds.
MsgId: *infinities(14)
Date: Sun May 11 20:38:11 PDT 1997
From: Sherry_Baker At: 152.163.233.75
The Maya, the Sumerians held Venus in great awe and studied it as a planet and God... With the data from the Magellan mission in the early l990s, we now have some startling information that may change the way we modern Earthlings view the planet.. Is that fair to say?
MsgId: *infinities(15)
Date: Sun May 11 20:39:44 PDT 1997
From: Sherry_Baker At: 152.163.233.75
You talk about your book about how "alive" Venus is... How , in fact, it "breathes", taking in gases and "exhaling" them..
MsgId: *infinities(16)
Date: Sun May 11 20:40:09 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
Yes! thats fair to say...
MsgId: *infinities(17)
Date: Sun May 11 20:41:32 PDT 1997
From: guest At: 128.105.40.3
Anyone alive?
MsgId: *infinities(18)
Date: Sun May 11 20:41:42 PDT 1997
From: guest At: 128.105.40.3
Anyone alive?
MsgId: *infinities(19)
Date: Sun May 11 20:41:42 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
Venus, like Earth, has active geochemical cycles...
MsgId: *infinities(20)
Date: Sun May 11 20:42:11 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
Earth has a carbon cycle which we, in fact, are a small part of...
MsgId: *infinities(21)
Date: Sun May 11 20:42:32 PDT 1997
From: Sherry_Baker At: 152.163.233.75
The clouds of Venus... therein lies quite a tale ! The clouds have kept Earthlings from actually seeing the surface of Venus, kept it much more of a mystery than the surface of Mars, and now you are suggesting that the clouds might actually hold some form of life?
MsgId: *infinities(22)
Date: Sun May 11 20:42:40 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
Venus has an active sulfur cycle, connecting surface, clouds, atmosphere and interior.
MsgId: *infinities(23)
Date: Sun May 11 20:44:09 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
Well, the clouds could make a good habitat...
MsgId: *infinities(24)
Date: Sun May 11 20:44:27 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
We certainly don't have any evidence of life there...
MsgId: *infinities(25)
Date: Sun May 11 20:44:48 PDT 1997
From: Sherry_Baker At: 152.163.233.75
Can you describe the clouds for us? And talk about some of the inexplicable findings that suggest they contain ...well... something that's ...inexplicable?
MsgId: *infinities(26)
Date: Sun May 11 20:44:53 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
But there are some strange things going on in the clouds that we haven't figured out yet...
MsgId: *infinities(27)
Date: Sun May 11 20:45:34 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
And I think its a productive (and fun) activity for us to imagine how life might work in other places, so I advocate an open mind about life there.
MsgId: *infinities(28)
Date: Sun May 11 20:46:15 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
OK. For one thing, there is the "unknown ultraviolet absorber"
MsgId: *infinities(29)
Date: Sun May 11 20:46:58 PDT 1997
From: Sherry_Baker At: 152.163.233.75
You say we Earthlings look at the universe through carbon tinted glasses... would you elaborate?
MsgId: *infinities(30)
Date: Sun May 11 20:47:07 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
This stuff covers most of the planet in the upper clouds, absorbs a HUGE amount of solar energy and has thus far defied our attempts at describing its chemistry.
MsgId: *infinities(31)
Date: Sun May 11 20:47:51 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
Galileo is supposed to have "discovered" life on Earth by observing clorophyl as it passed by here on its way to Jupiter...
MsgId: *infinities(32)
Date: Sun May 11 20:48:28 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
A widespread pigment around the planet. So... thats what we see on Venus, only it absorbs in the UV! You follow me?
MsgId: *infinities(33)
Date: Sun May 11 20:50:27 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
What if some critters have evolved to do photosynthesis with UV light there, and are using sulfur chemistry for their metabolism? (we know that the unknown absorber is related to sulfur)
MsgId: *infinities(34)
Date: Sun May 11 20:51:06 PDT 1997
From: Sherry_Baker At: 152.163.233.75
so, very theoretically at least, there could be be some life form that has figured out how to use the intense energy of ultraviolet radiation and is doing photosynthesis in the cloud tops of Venus??!
MsgId: *infinities(35)
Date: Sun May 11 20:52:27 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
Sure, why not?
MsgId: *infinities(36)
Date: Sun May 11 20:52:53 PDT 1997
From: Sherry_Baker At: 152.163.233.75
Those hypothetical cloud critters would probably be carbon based--- but you make some interesting points about our taking off our carbon tinted glasses and opening ourselves up to other kinds of life forms.... where might we look for them on Venus?
MsgId: *infinities(37)
Date: Sun May 11 20:53:08 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
I think that a lively geochemical environment will probably be found to be a prerequisite for life in the universe. Venus has that.
MsgId: *infinities(38)
Date: Sun May 11 20:54:46 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
If they don't need to be carbon based, they could be on the surface or in the subsurface...
MsgId: *infinities(39)
Date: Sun May 11 20:55:46 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
The surface is a desirable place in a lot of ways: A stable platform, vigorous flows of energy and potential nutrients, AND a state of chemical disequilibrium...
MsgId: *infinities(40)
Date: Sun May 11 20:55:55 PDT 1997
From: Sherry_Baker At: 152.163.233.75
If there's another kind of biochemistry on Venus that's not carbon based -- I guess all best are off about where it might be.
MsgId: *infinities(41)
Date: Sun May 11 20:56:16 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
Which is what the Gaia folks say is a prerequisite for life on a planet!
MsgId: *infinities(42)
Date: Sun May 11 20:57:10 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
Well, we certainly can't place a strict temperature range on it, which is really how carbon narrows down the options.
MsgId: *infinities(43)
Date: Sun May 11 20:57:54 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
But there still might be some good general criteria for desirable biological niches. I think we are JUST BEGINNING to figure out what life is.
MsgId: *infinities(44)
Date: Sun May 11 20:59:36 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
I think, as we look around the universe, we have to assume that all bets are off about life anywhere. Keeping that in mind, there are certain kinds of clues we can look for...
MsgId: *infinities(45)
Date: Sun May 11 21:00:05 PDT 1997
From: Sherry_Baker At: 152.163.233.75
The pictures and information in your book from the Magellan mission are very dramatic... we really are "seeing" Venus with new eyes --even if they are radar eyes!
MsgId: *infinities(46)
Date: Sun May 11 21:00:14 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
while trying to remember how clueless we are. We should expect surprise, don't you think?
MsgId: *infinities(47)
Date: Sun May 11 21:00:45 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
Yeah, Magellan changed everything...
MsgId: *infinities(48)
Date: Sun May 11 21:01:37 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
The clouds have historically hidden Venus from us. It was only in the 1990's that we finally saw the surface in all its glory...
MsgId: *infinities(49)
Date: Sun May 11 21:02:12 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
It is a remarkable combination of the shockingly familiar and the completely new.
MsgId: *infinities(50)
Date: Sun May 11 21:02:59 PDT 1997
From: Sherry_Baker At: 152.163.233.75
Actually, we are still being surprised about the niches where we find carbon based life in right here on our own planet..
MsgId: *infinities(51)
Date: Sun May 11 21:04:24 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
Certainly. We seem to learn a lot more about nature inductively than
MsgId: *infinities(52)
Date: Sun May 11 21:04:47 PDT 1997
From: Sherry_Baker At: 152.163.233.75
To you, islooking at the question of life on a place like Venus is a way to start thinking about the boundaries of our ignorance about the universe -- and what it may hold in terms of life forms?
MsgId: *infinities(53)
Date: Sun May 11 21:05:02 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
than we do deductively. We are not smart enough to PREDICT how biology will manifest itself. Maybe someday we will be able to.
MsgId: *infinities(54)
Date: Sun May 11 21:07:00 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
Yes. We do not really know life's boundaries. I think there is a bit of a consensual dogma in exobiology right now that is not healthy.
MsgId: *infinities(55)
Date: Sun May 11 21:08:06 PDT 1997
From: Sherry_Baker At: 152.163.233.75
In his book, Venus Revealed, David Grinspoon suggests that humankind will indeed one day explore Venus. Why should we David?
MsgId: *infinities(56)
Date: Sun May 11 21:10:10 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
Because it is there!...
MsgId: *infinities(57)
Date: Sun May 11 21:10:23 PDT 1997
From: Sherry_Baker At: 152.163.233.75
I shouldn't have said he "suggests" -- you are absolutely convinced we'll go there -- and perhaps live in cities in Venusian clouds.. right?
MsgId: *infinities(58)
Date: Sun May 11 21:10:37 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
We are a damn curious species and I can't imagine us staying away from there for too long.
MsgId: *infinities(59)
Date: Sun May 11 21:11:15 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
I don't think the motivations will necessarily be practical...
MsgId: *infinities(60)
Date: Sun May 11 21:12:10 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
although ultimately we may want to spread ourselves to more than one planet to insure survival against planetary catastrophe.
MsgId: *infinities(61)
Date: Sun May 11 21:12:36 PDT 1997
From: Sherry_Baker At: 152.163.233.75
It's far cooler than the 900 degrees F on the surface of the planet -- don't you say we'd just need something to protect our bodies from acid rain and some cool drinks and a cloud city might be feasible???
MsgId: *infinities(62)
Date: Sun May 11 21:12:45 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
I'm excited about further exploration of Venus, but sending people certainly isn't the easist way to do that...
MsgId: *infinities(63)
Date: Sun May 11 21:13:12 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
Still, I'd love to go see what it feels like to walk around in that thick atmosphere.
MsgId: *infinities(64)
Date: Sun May 11 21:13:55 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
Thats right. There is a level in the clouds that is close to room temperature (on Earth) and surface pressure. Good place for a cloud city.
MsgId: *infinities(65)
Date: Sun May 11 21:14:42 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
That could be used as a base for research, or possibly an exotic vacation spot for people with a twisted sense of getting away from it all...
MsgId: *infinities(66)
Date: Sun May 11 21:15:08 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
It worked in Las Vegas, which isn't much more habitale for carbon-in-water beings!
MsgId: *infinities(67)
Date: Sun May 11 21:15:42 PDT 1997
From: Sherry_Baker At: 152.163.233.75
The pictures from the Magellan mission -- and the older photos the Russians took with their robotic rover on the surface -- are so dramatic. They really make you want to see more .....
MsgId: *infinities(68)
Date: Sun May 11 21:15:46 PDT 1997
From: Sherry_Baker At: 152.163.233.75
The pictures from the Magellan mission -- and the older photos the Russians took with their robotic rover on the surface -- are so dramatic. They really make you want to see more .....
MsgId: *infinities(69)
Date: Sun May 11 21:16:26 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
I agree. Magellan shows us almost the whole surface at football field resolution...
MsgId: *infinities(70)
Date: Sun May 11 21:17:15 PDT 1997
From: Sherry_Baker At: 152.163.233.75
Do you know what the future looks like for further exploration of Venus? It looks like all eyes are on Mars right now.... is anything cooking for Venus ( bad pun, considering the temperature on that planet!)???
MsgId: *infinities(71)
Date: Sun May 11 21:17:15 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
Some areas are so active and complex and strange and beautiful. I want to see it up close and in real visible light imagery, which has some advantages over radar (like color frinstance!)
MsgId: *infinities(72)
Date: Sun May 11 21:18:26 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
Yes, there are several ideas and proposals for new Venus missions. We are waiting to hear about funding for a few of them. There are possible orbiters, entry probes, landers.
MsgId: *infinities(73)
Date: Sun May 11 21:19:15 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
Eventually we really need to set up a seismic network to listen to her insides and compare to Earth. We will learn so much about BOTH worlds!
MsgId: *infinities(74)
Date: Sun May 11 21:21:03 PDT 1997
From: Sherry_Baker At: 152.163.233.75
You mentioned to me earlier something about a robotic airplane, essentially, that could fly below the clouds and take really detailed photographic pictures of areas on the surface. Is anything like that on the drawing board? Is it a possibility if the funding could be found?
MsgId: *infinities(75)
Date: Sun May 11 21:22:09 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
There are several schemes for possible airlplanes or balloons. None have actually been proposed to NASA, to my knowledge...
MsgId: *infinities(76)
Date: Sun May 11 21:22:41 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
But I think it will before long. There is a wonderful contraption thats been dreamed up called an AEROBOT...
MsgId: *infinities(77)
Date: Sun May 11 21:23:18 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
This is a balloon that can control its own bouyancy. It gets carried around the whole planet by the fierce upper atmosphere winds...
MsgId: *infinities(78)
Date: Sun May 11 21:24:09 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
and dips down towards the surface to take pictures and measurements when its in interesting places, then rises up to a cooler level for more traveling and to keep it from melting.
MsgId: *infinities(79)
Date: Sun May 11 21:25:00 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
A drone airplane would be great also...
MsgId: *infinities(80)
Date: Sun May 11 21:25:34 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
stubby little wings for the thick atmosphere. Just use spy plane technology for the imaging!
MsgId: *infinities(81)
Date: Sun May 11 21:26:35 PDT 1997
From: Sherry_Baker At: 152.163.233.75
You describe Venus as a "twin" of our planet's in many ways. What can this twin teach us? Or will we not know until we learn much, much more ?
MsgId: *infinities(82)
Date: Sun May 11 21:27:44 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
It can teach us a new, less parochial, wider perspective on our own planet, environment, climate, etc...
MsgId: *infinities(83)
Date: Sun May 11 21:28:28 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
Comparative planetology is a new field, but its already taught us a lot about how planets work, including Earth. Venus is a natural for Earth comparisons...
MsgId: *infinities(84)
Date: Sun May 11 21:29:30 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
A greenhouse effect on steroids, global warming gone mad, acid rain to dwarf anything we've done here, and upper atmospheric chemistry that taught us to take care of our ozone layer, for starters!
MsgId: *infinities(85)
Date: Sun May 11 21:31:11 PDT 1997
From: Sherry_Baker At: 152.163.233.75
Before we go, could you give us your web page address so OMNI visitors tonight can find more information about Venus and your book ?
MsgId: *infinities(86)
Date: Sun May 11 21:32:07 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
I'm at http://sunra.colorado.edu/david
MsgId: *infinities(87)
Date: Sun May 11 21:32:56 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
Just click on "My Book!" to see excerpts from the book, lots of images, reviews, and links to lots of other Venus resources and information. You can also send me mail...
MsgId: *infinities(88)
Date: Sun May 11 21:33:34 PDT 1997
From: Sherry_Baker At: 152.163.233.75
Thanks David.We'll leave you with a quote from William Blake that you'll find in David's book: "If the doors of perception were cleansed, everything would appear as it is, infinite". I'm Sherry Baker. Thanks for joining me and my guest , David Grinspoon, tonight on OMNI's Infinities. Good-night. And watch the skies!
MsgId: *infinities(89)
Date: Sun May 11 21:33:36 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
I'd be happy to discuss any of this stuff further with anyone.
MsgId: *infinities(90)
Date: Sun May 11 21:34:17 PDT 1997
From: David_Grinspoon At: 207.49.120.68
Thanks a lot! This has been fun.
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