Prime Time Replay:
Jeff Zaleski
on his book The Soul of Cyberspace
MsgId: *infinities(1)
Date: Sun Aug 17 20:59:05 EDT 1997
From: Rob_Killheffer At: 205.198.117.118
Good evening and welcome to another edition of Infinities! I'm your host, Rob Killheffer, and my guest tonight is Jeff Zaleski -- a sometime writer for OMNI and author of a new book, "THE SOUL OF CYBERSPACE," which takes a look at how spiritual life is evolving on the Net. Are you here, Jeff?
MsgId: *infinities(3)
Date: Sun Aug 17 21:08:35 EDT 1997
From: Jeff At: 205.186.166.113
Hi, Rob, sorry for the delay! And hello to everybody who is still tuned in. I guess the soul of cyberspace can be a fickle one....
MsgId: *infinities(5)
Date: Sun Aug 17 21:11:01 EDT 1997
From: Rob_Killheffer At: 205.198.117.55
No problem, Jeff. Glad you made it. Let's leap right in: spiritual and religious life isn't something most people would immediately identify with the online world -- after your research, how large a part of the Net community is it?
MsgId: *infinities(6)
Date: Sun Aug 17 21:12:46 EDT 1997
From: Jeff At: 205.186.166.113
Spiritual life is rampant on the Net, Rob. Not only in terms of sites -- tens of thousands -- but in the mindsets of cybernauts everywhere. Every major religion, and every minor religion, and every homegrown spirituality -- they're all on the Net. The Vatican has a Web site; so do Mennonites. And so does the Church of the Bunny, and pagans, and Jews and Mormons and Muslims and so on.
MsgId: *infinities(9)
Date: Sun Aug 17 21:18:10 EDT 1997
From: Jeff At: 205.186.166.113
Now our host seems to have disappeared into the digital ether. Yes, the soul of cyberspace can be a fickle one.
MsgId: *infinities(10)
Date: Sun Aug 17 21:20:19 EDT 1997
From: Rob_Killheffer At: 205.198.117.55
Sorry, Jeff -- didn't mean to disappear -- just wasn't sure if you were done posting yet. (Add a "/ga" when you've said your last so I can tell.) Can you give those of us who haven't been to many (or any) of these sites some idea of what might be there? What does the Vatican site offer -- what is it trying to do? Are these sites typically recruitment/conversion sites, or more passively informational, or disputational?
MsgId: *infinities(11)
Date: Sun Aug 17 21:21:40 EDT 1997
From: Jeff At: 205.186.166.113
Okay, Rob, I'll add the /ga. Your question is a good one.Most of the sites are proselytizing sites, of course -- religious groups looking for converts or at least to explain to others what their religion is all about. What is most interesting about the sites, though, is what they don't include -- any sacraments or sacred rituals (with very very rare exceptions). None of the "official" Catholic sites online offer confession or communion, or the like, for example.
MsgId: *infinities(15)
Date: Sun Aug 17 21:26:27 EDT 1997
From: Rob_Killheffer At: 205.198.117.55
I guess I'm not surprised that such established religions as Roman Catholicism aren't offering rituals or services over the Net, but are any of the smaller or more "homegrown" faiths conducting rites or meetings online?
MsgId: *infinities(16)
Date: Sun Aug 17 21:27:27 EDT 1997
From: Jeff At: 205.186.166.113
Some sites offer meetings online. There are a few 12-Step groups, for example, unofficial offshoots of AA, that offer meetings online (and AA is of course a spiritual movement). And then there have been pagan rituals online. In my book, I include an interview with Mark Pesce, who is the developer of VRML. Mark is also a practicing witch, and a couple of years ago conducted a pagan ritual online, welcoming "the god" into cyberspace. What he did was, he and a few fellow witches conducted their rites in "real-life," while at the same time broadcasting, or duplicating them, in HTML and VRML.
MsgId: *infinities(19)
Date: Sun Aug 17 21:31:49 EDT 1997
From: Rob_Killheffer At: 205.198.117.55
It seemed to me from reading your book that you could perhaps categorize spiritual activities online in two broad groups: those that use the Net like any other medium to spread the word and recruit new members, and then those that think of the medium itself as somehow spiritual or transformational. (Obviously some efforts would fall into both categories.) Sounds like Pesce might be of this latter type. ...
MsgId: *infinities(20)
Date: Sun Aug 17 21:33:27 EDT 1997
From: Jeff At: 205.186.166.113
Yes, Pesce is of the latter type. Many of those who wish to convert others through the Net also believe that the Net is a spiritual force, however. One Orthodox Jewish rabbi I interviewed jokingly suggested that perhaps HTML is another word for God. A fundamental idea that's driving many of those proselytizing online is that the Net is, in some way not yet understood, uniting humanity, linking us all in perhaps unfathomable ways.
MsgId: *infinities(23)
Date: Sun Aug 17 21:37:39 EDT 1997
From: Jeff At: 205.186.166.113
Sorry about that, Rob, I seem to be stuttering here.
MsgId: *infinities(24)
Date: Sun Aug 17 21:39:33 EDT 1997
From: Rob_Killheffer At: 205.198.117.61
Whew -- the gods of the Net grew displeased with me there, Jeff, and booted me. Just got back in. ...
MsgId: *infinities(25)
Date: Sun Aug 17 21:40:45 EDT 1997
From: Jeff At: 205.186.166.113
Welcome back. :) To amplify my answer to your question about the different mindsets of those on the Net...
MsgId: *infinities(27)
Date: Sun Aug 17 21:42:25 EDT 1997
From: Rob_Killheffer At: 205.198.117.61
It's interesting, I think, that even in William Gibson's novels and stories, in which the term "cyberspace" first appeared, featured dieties of a sort that inhabited the Net -- that spiritual dimension has been there all along. Are there significant differences in the ways different religions -- paganism, Catholism, Judaism, Islam -- use and think about the Net?
MsgId: *infinities(28)
Date: Sun Aug 17 21:43:44 EDT 1997
From: Rob_Killheffer At: 205.198.117.61
Whoops -- go ahead and amplify first, then you can get to that next question.
MsgId: *infinities(29)
Date: Sun Aug 17 21:43:44 EDT 1997
From: Jeff At: 205.186.166.113
The line in the sand, or in the digital sand, is between those who believe that sacred energies can manifest in cyberspace, and those who don't. Cyberspace is a digital medium, and the world in which we are born is apparently not. In cyberspace we don't have bodies, we don't die, we don't breathe. Do we need a body for some kinds of spiritual work? Many religious teach that we do.Now, to answer your question....
The fundamental difference among the religions as to how they use the Net is whether their representatives who are online understand that the Net is a sort of working anarchy, a place without a center and lacking a defining hierarchy. The Vatican site, for example, for all its beauty-and it is a magnificent site visually--doesn't reflect the nature of the Net. For instance, it offers no email by which to contact the Vatican. It's online religion from the top down.
MsgId: *infinities(33)
Date: Sun Aug 17 21:48:34 EDT 1997
From: Rob_Killheffer At: 205.198.117.61
Before going back to my question about how different religions approach the Net, let me follow up your last comment by asking about Frank Tipler's ideas. In his book "THE PHYSICS OF IMMORTALITY," he essentially imagines heaven and the afterlife as existing in a huge virtual reality constructed at the end of time -- explaining the many fabulous qualities of heaven by the very fact that in cyberspace there are no bodies, no bodily limits, no death.
MsgId: *infinities(35)
Date: Sun Aug 17 21:49:59 EDT 1997
From: Jeff At: 205.186.166.113
We're playing hopscotch with our questions here, which is great. On to Tipler.... Tipler's vision of a digital heaven and hell is fascinating. But it all hinges on the fundamental question of whether human consciousness can be digitized. Personally, I doubt that it can. And if it can't, it can't be simulated entirely on a computer.
MsgId: *infinities(38)
Date: Sun Aug 17 21:54:00 EDT 1997
From: Rob_Killheffer At: 205.198.117.61
I have my objections to Tipler's concepts, too, but I wonder: have you encountered anyone on the Net who thinks his way, who sees the Net as possibly the source of the fulfillment of religion's promise?
MsgId: *infinities(39)
Date: Sun Aug 17 21:56:27 EDT 1997
From: Jeff At: 205.186.166.113
There are many people, including credentialed religious teachers (rabbis, priests, etc.) who believe that the Net will eventually help to fulfill religion's promise. I don't think anyone who embraces a traditional religion fully shares Tipler's views, however, for the simple reason that in order for consciousness to be digitized, for heaven and hell to be digitized, they must be fully describable by science -- that is, they must be material and natural. And all the major religions teach that there is something of this universe that is super-natural, beyond science's ken.
MsgId: *infinities(40)
Date: Sun Aug 17 21:58:05 EDT 1997
From: Rob_Killheffer At: 205.198.117.61
What about some of the less traditional religious types -- people like Mark Pesce? Certainly some of the philosophical musings of the wired gurus have sounded a lot like spiritual concepts to me ...
MsgId: *infinities(41)
Date: Sun Aug 17 22:01:17 EDT 1997
From: Jeff At: 205.186.166.113
Yes, many severely wired people have a strong spiritual vision, and no wonder, when through this marvelous technology we can reach one another instantly anywhere from around the globe. But Pesce, for instance, is very emphatic about the importance of the natural world. He has no plans to leave it behind! Although I do want to add: what Pesce and others, including myself, now see is that we have two worlds now, not one. The natural world and the digital world. They complement one another, and both have their spiritual potentials and pitfalls.
MsgId: *infinities(44)
Date: Sun Aug 17 22:03:11 EDT 1997
From: Rob_Killheffer At: 205.198.117.61
We're running out of time, but I want to get a couple of other questions in, if you can stay a few minutes longer. (What with the technical trouble, we haven't even begun to cover the topic.) Alright?
MsgId: *infinities(45)
Date: Sun Aug 17 22:04:23 EDT 1997
From: Jeff At: 205.186.166.113
Sure, I'll be delighted. Only a couple of more questions? :)
MsgId: *infinities(47)
Date: Sun Aug 17 22:05:05 EDT 1997
From: Rob_Killheffer At: 205.198.117.61
One of the main questions I have is how you see the digital world and the vast connectivity it provides will alter the shape of religion and spirituality in coming years? Seems to me that if the printing press could have such dramatic effects, the Net is going to have a dozen times that impact. (Only a couple of questions because I can't stay on too long. We could of course go on well into tomorrow, or all week. :) .)
MsgId: *infinities(49)
Date: Sun Aug 17 22:07:35 EDT 1997
From: Jeff At: 205.186.166.113
Yes, that's an important question. I see two major changes coming. First, the Net and the Web will boost some religions and slowly erode the power of some others. Of the traditional religions, Roman Catholicism, with its strict hierarchy and center will, I suspect, have the most to lose. Buddhism, with its emphasis on relativity and fluidity will have the most to gain (as the Net itself is relative and fluid).Second, I suspect that as computer technology advances, a great confusion will arise between the natural worlds and the digital worlds. Artificial intelligences and intelligent artificial life will arise, and we will have decide whether these entities share in the sacred, as we believe that we ourselves do.
MsgId: *infinities(51)
Date: Sun Aug 17 22:11:19 EDT 1997
From: Rob_Killheffer At: 205.198.117.61
I suppose it's inevitable, after the Heaven's Gate tragedy earlier this year, to ask if the Net offers new power to smaller and more "cultic" movements to reach converts and build themselves. Do you think we'll start to see faiths arise whose presence is mainly on the Net, rather than in the material world?
MsgId: *infinities(52)
Date: Sun Aug 17 22:14:42 EDT 1997
From: Jeff At: 205.186.166.113
There's no doubt that we will see purely cyber-based faiths arising. But whether these faiths will have the transformative spiritual potential of traditional faiths is in doubt, as these faiths will be rooted not in the experience of the body, but in a largely, if not wholly, digital experience.
MsgId: *infinities(53)
Date: Sun Aug 17 22:16:30 EDT 1997
From: Rob_Killheffer At: 205.198.117.61
Thanks, Jeff. Unfortunately, I really can't stay on any longer. It does seem that there's a lively and fascinating spiritual world evolving in cyberspace, and if any of our viewers want to explore more, I highly recommend Jeff's book, "THE SOUL OF CYBERSPACE." Thanks for coming on, Jeff!
MsgId: *infinities(54)
Date: Sun Aug 17 22:18:16 EDT 1997
From: Jeff At: 205.186.166.113
Thanks very much, Rob. It's been a pleasure!
MsgId: *infinities(55)
Date: Sun Aug 17 22:18:55 EDT 1997
From: Rob_Killheffer At: 205.198.117.61
For me as well. And with that, this is Rob Killheffer, saying goodnight for Infinities!
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