Prime Time Replay:
Dinosaur expert Michael Novacek
on recent discoveries in the Mongolian desert
MsgId: *infinities(2)
Date: Sun Dec 8 21:08:43 EST 1996
From: Melanie At: 206.80.175.164
Tonite we are delighted to welcome Michael Novacek, Senior Vice President and Provost of Science, and Curator of Vertebrate Paleontology at the American Museum of Natural History in Manhattan. What all this means is that Novacek is the guy who gets to go out to the farthest reaches of the earth and dig up dinosaurs. Or, as in the case of recent phenomenal finds in the Gobi desert of Mongolia, to trip over dinosaurs. Welcome Mr. Novacek
MsgId: *infinities(3)
Date: Sun Dec 8 21:57:35 EST 1996
From: Michael_Novacek At: 152.172.169.102
Thank you. :)
MsgId: *infinities(5)
Date: Sun Dec 8 21:59:56 EST 1996
From: Melanie At: 206.80.175.164
For those who have not yet read your fine new book, "Dinosaurs of the Flaming Cliffs," (Anchor Books)--a great holiday gift--could you tell us a bit about the type and importance of your recent Gobi discoveries.
MsgId: *infinities(6)
Date: Sun Dec 8 22:02:45 EST 1996
From: Michael_Novacek At: 152.172.169.102
We were the first expedition from the West to return to the Gobi in 70 years and we began our searches in 1990. Then in 1993, we found an incredibly rich dinosaur site and it turns out that this site, which we call Ukhaa Tolgod, is not only the richest site in the Gobi for dinosaurs and other fossils, it's arguably one of the richest dinosaur sites in the world. Perhaps *the* richest in terms of the quality of the specimens and the diversity of the animals represented. We've continued to work the Gobi since the discovery in 1993 and we just completed another field season in 1996 and we anticipate returning in 1997.
MsgId: *infinities(7)
Date: Sun Dec 8 22:04:25 EST 1996
From: Melanie At: 206.80.175.164
What do you consider to be the most important discoveries you've made during the Mongolian expeditions? And what have they meant to advancing paleontological research?
MsgId: *infinities(8)
Date: Sun Dec 8 22:07:42 EST 1996
From: Michael_Novacek At: 152.172.169.102
Really, the most important discovery is the discovery of the site because so many of the fossils are important, new and exquisitely represented. It's hard to choose a favorite, but perhaps three of the most important finds are 1) Eggs with dinosaur embryos (and these are the embryos of Oviraptor), 2) Several skeletons of Oviraptor nesting on the eggs, and 3) Complete skeletons of a shrew-like mammal that represents a early lineage of the group of modern mammals to which we belong. All these finds are important because they reveal clues to important evolutionary problems. One is the evolution of birds from dinosaurs and the other is the emergence, or the rise, of modern mammal groups. Finally, these fossils are so well preserved that they reveal something about the lifestyle and behaviors of the animals that lived 80 million years ago.
MsgId: *infinities(9)
Date: Sun Dec 8 22:09:12 EST 1996
From: Melanie At: 206.80.175.164
What new things about dinosaur behavior can you deduce from fossil remnants deposited 80 million years ago?
MsgId: *infinities(10)
Date: Sun Dec 8 22:13:54 EST 1996
From: Michael_Novacek At: 152.172.169.102
Clues to the behavior of dinosaurs are very rare. They're usually inferred, from very indirect evidence. We're lucky in our case because we actually have fossils that look as if the animal "caught" in the act, killed, and rapidly buried by sand. We actually have dinosaurs that show skeletons in a crouching position reminiscent of modern birds like chickens, as if they're incubating the nest, the eggs. This is the first time dinosaurs have been found in such a pose and it confirms a suggestion that dinosaurs were very much like modern birds in their care of their eggs.Another interesting find is a nest with embryos of Oviraptor in the eggs combined with small skeletons of Velociraptor-like dinosaurs in the same nest. This fascinating mixture of two different species suggests that the mother may have been feeding her hatchling these little Velociraptors or that the Velociraptors were actually raiding the nest. At any rate, the combination of the two species in the nest is more than simple coincidence.
MsgId: *infinities(12)
Date: Sun Dec 8 22:16:33 EST 1996
From: Melanie At: 206.80.175.164
You came to the Gobi armed with a battery of new technologies to bear on the problem. What are some of these new technologies, and how have they been applied to increase your understanding of the creatures you're studying?
MsgId: *infinities(13)
Date: Sun Dec 8 22:18:14 EST 1996
From: Michael_Novacek At: 152.172.169.102
An important technology is simply a use for exploration and that's the Global Positioning System units (GPS), which allow us to plot our course from satellite signals. This is very important because the Gobi is not mapped accurately and it's very easy to lose your way. It also helps us plot localities. In the lab, we also use X-rays and CAT scanners to look at details of the fossils.
MsgId: *infinities(14)
Date: Sun Dec 8 22:20:10 EST 1996
From: Melanie At: 206.80.175.164
You write about reading dinosaur books when you were a kid--like many of us did. How did your interest evolve into a profession and passion?
MsgId: *infinities(15)
Date: Sun Dec 8 22:21:40 EST 1996
From: Michael_Novacek At: 152.172.169.102
I loved dinosaurs as a kid, and I read a lot about them, but by about 10, I started getting into lots of other things. It wasn't until my college years that I revisited dinosaurs and paleontology. This was because I had a great teacher who inspired my work in this area.
MsgId: *infinities(16)
Date: Sun Dec 8 22:23:31 EST 1996
From: Melanie At: 206.80.175.164
What's your take on the recent boom in pop paleontology--everything from Barney to Jurassic Park? Is "Dinosaur Lite" helpful or harmful to serious science and education?
MsgId: *infinities(17)
Date: Sun Dec 8 22:25:15 EST 1996
From: Michael_Novacek At: 152.172.169.102
In general, we're delighted that there's so much interest in paleontology -- that it's become a very popular part of culture. The problem is that there may be actually too much focus on dinosaurs rather than all the fascinating important events of the history of life. So we hope that dinosaurs provide, in a sense, a gateway that feeds people's interests in the fossil record and the evolution of life -- everything from lowly bacteria to dinosaurs and mammals and the groups that represent our own history.
MsgId: *infinities(18)
Date: Sun Dec 8 22:27:07 EST 1996
From: Melanie At: 206.80.175.164
What advice, then, would you have for a young person who's seriously considering this field? Are there jobs? Are women welcome? What course of study might they pursue?
MsgId: *infinities(19)
Date: Sun Dec 8 22:29:06 EST 1996
From: Michael_Novacek At: 152.172.169.102
This is a challenging field and there aren't many jobs. However, like many endeavors, real passion and hard work can lead to success. The field is certainly welcoming to women and minority scientists. It could use more, but there are a number of very inspiring women paleontologists now. The advice is to study hard in high school and college (even before that) and learn a lot about both geology and biology. Because paleontology is generally just a speciality that you move into from a biology or geology major. MsgId: *infinities(20)
Date: Sun Dec 8 22:30:51 EST 1996
From: Melanie At: 206.80.175.164
Cretaceous mammals may not be as "marketable" as dinosaurs, but you devote a lot of time to them in your book. What is the importance of those tiny skeletons to paleontology as a whole?
MsgId: *infinities(21)
Date: Sun Dec 8 22:32:45 EST 1996
From: Michael_Novacek At: 152.172.169.102
The importance of these mammals is basically that they represent the early members of the groups that really survived and flourished. The next 65 million years after the non-bird dinosaurs go extinct are dominated by mammals. At least on land, and so these tiny creatures don't look like anything dramatic, but they are the roots of this extraordinary story. The rise of the mammals -- everything from aardvarks to zebras.
MsgId: *infinities(22)
Date: Sun Dec 8 22:35:11 EST 1996
From: Melanie At: 206.80.175.164
The American Museum's revamped Dinosaur Halls group the creatures according to cladistics--displaying dinosaurs with common ancestors and evolutionary features, rather than grouping them by the historical period in which they lived. Why was this new approach deemed more appropriate or "modern?"
MsgId: *infinities(23)
Date: Sun Dec 8 22:36:46 EST 1996
From: Michael_Novacek At: 152.172.169.102
A good question. It's not simply that this is "better" than grouping animals by a scene or a time, but we felt it was better because of our great collection. We have the world's largest collection of dinosaurs and other fossil vertebrates and so we felt we could actually tell the story of the major evolutionary lines.
MsgId: *infinities(24)
Date: Sun Dec 8 22:38:47 EST 1996
From: Melanie At: 206.80.175.164
Are any of the Gobi finds included in the new halls? Where else can we/will we be able to see your team's recent discoveries?
MsgId: *infinities(25)
Date: Sun Dec 8 22:40:27 EST 1996
From: Michael_Novacek At: 152.172.169.102
Yes, some of the Gobi finds are in the new halls, including the nesting Oviraptor and the dinosaur embryo, as well as the flightless bird Monoykus. So they are on display in the fossil hall in the Museum. In the next couple of years, we hope to bring more of our finds out on the exhibit floors at the American Museum.
MsgId: *infinities(26)
Date: Sun Dec 8 22:41:47 EST 1996
From: Melanie At: 206.80.175.164
What has been the most personally rewarding find for you? Why?
MsgId: *infinities(27)
Date: Sun Dec 8 22:43:27 EST 1996
From: Michael_Novacek At: 152.172.169.102
I think the most rewarding find for me was being part of the team that morning on July 16, 1993 when we found Uhkaa Tolgod, this extremely rich dinosaur site. By that morning, we had found a large number of incredible skeletons and other fossils, including the dinosaur embryo. It was the most exciting day of discovery for me in 20 years of fossil collecting.
MsgId: *infinities(28)
Date: Sun Dec 8 22:45:20 EST 1996
From: Melanie At: 206.80.175.164
How have recent breakthroughs in genetics helped the paleontologist's study of evolution?
MsgId: *infinities(29)
Date: Sun Dec 8 22:46:52 EST 1996
From: Michael_Novacek At: 152.172.169.102
The studies of genes have been very important for us in reconstructing evolutionary branches. In very rare cases, we can even get a DNA sequence from a fossil. These have mainly been insects and other small fossils preserved in amber. Contrary to widespread belief, we don't have good DNA sequences for fossil dinosaurs.
MsgId: *infinities(30)
Date: Sun Dec 8 22:48:37 EST 1996
From: Melanie At: 206.80.175.164
Jurassic Park aside, how does one extract DNA from an extremely dead sample?
MsgId: *infinities(31)
Date: Sun Dec 8 22:50:44 EST 1996
From: Michael_Novacek At: 152.172.169.102
The sequence preserved in an insect in amber has to be very carefully extracted directly from the tissue. Since this sample is so small, it must be then cloned in order to produce enough DNA for analysis. The most important step in this study is to make sure the sequence is not simply a contaminant -- that is, DNA from other samples in the lab, etc. A very careful series of procedures then eliminates the fact that the sequence is a contaminate.
MsgId: *infinities(32)
Date: Sun Dec 8 22:52:45 EST 1996
From: Melanie At: 206.80.175.164
You (rather stoically, I think) describe hardships in the Gobi that rival the seven plagues of Egypt, yet you keep going back. It's obvious that the joy of discovery has a hand in your ricidivism. Could you talk a moment about that feeling?
MsgId: *infinities(33)
Date: Sun Dec 8 22:54:44 EST 1996
From: Michael_Novacek At: 152.172.169.102
Actually, there are times in the Gobi when I'd much rather be somewhere else. It's a great adventure, it's fun, I like deserts, there's a lot of beauty there, I feel comfortable sleeping on the ground, I've done it a lot of my life. Yet those hot fly-ridden days, the sun, the flashfloods are things I could really rather do without. On those days, the only things that keep us going are the knowledge of our previous triumphs and the anticipation of others to come.
MsgId: *infinities(34)
Date: Sun Dec 8 22:56:13 EST 1996
From: Melanie At: 206.80.175.164
What does the Cretaceous extinction have to teach us about changing global climate today? Dinosaurs weren't very well equipped to adapt, but aren't we more resourceful?
MsgId: *infinities(35)
Date: Sun Dec 8 22:58:20 EST 1996
From: Michael_Novacek At: 152.172.169.102
I think that the Cretaceous extinction event, if it was created by climate, doesn't necessarily teach us much about current conditions. Indeed, the current greatest threat to life on the planet now is not simply climate change, but the destruction of habitats by humans. I think the importance of Cretaceous extinction and other great extinction events is that it shows us that life, however glorious and enriched, can be very fragile. That applies to the present.
MsgId: *infinities(36)
Date: Sun Dec 8 22:59:14 EST 1996
From: Melanie At: 206.80.175.164
What news have you to report from the 96 expedition? Special plans for '97?
MsgId: *infinities(37)
Date: Sun Dec 8 23:00:51 EST 1996
From: Michael_Novacek At: 152.172.169.102
'96 -- we do have some dramatic new finds, but sorry, I can't speak about them in detail yet. The '96 season was very productive in another sense as well -- we did a lot of geologic mapping and descriptions. These are important for us in reconstructing the environment of the site. We intend to do more of the same in 1997, but we're also on the prowl for great fossils and new localities.
MsgId: *infinities(38)
Date: Sun Dec 8 23:03:15 EST 1996
From: Melanie At: 206.80.175.164
This is my last question--You write that critics have said paleontology is a pastime for fanatics and romantics. Are fanaticism and romanticism, and science mutually excusive? It seems to a layperson that scientific advances would be few without a few romantics and fanatics at work.
MsgId: *infinities(39)
Date: Sun Dec 8 23:05:43 EST 1996
From: Michael_Novacek At: 152.172.169.102
Of course they're not mutually exclusive and I think the romance and fun and fanaticism are all part of it. But I also think that paleontology has a lot of the qualities of many sciences. It's framed by very sophisticated theories and it relies on some very sophisticated technology for new discovery. But I'm the last one to say there's no place for romanticism in science. That's what makes it all worthwhile.
MsgId: *infinities(40)
Date: Sun Dec 8 23:08:00 EST 1996
From: Melanie At: 206.80.175.164
Thank you for joining us Mr. Novacek, it's been a real pleasure. Happy holidays to everyone, and peace on earth from here to Mongolia and beyond.
MsgId: *infinities(41)
Date: Sun Dec 8 23:08:50 EST 1996
From: Michael_Novacek At: 152.172.169.102
Thank you. Thanks to all and Happy Holidays to you, too. Come visit us on the web at http://www.amnh.org. Goodnight!
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