Prime Time Replay:


Cult expert Janja Lalich
on the Methods of Cult Leaders




MsgId: *live_science(4)
Date: Thu May 1 18:32:49 PDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_and_Janja_Lalich At: 152.163.206.151

Good evening and welcome to Live Science. I'm your host, Keith Harary, Editor at Large of Omni. My special, in-studio guest tonight is renowned cult expert Janja Lalich, Education Director of Community Resources on Influence and Control in Alameda, California. We'll be discussing cults and cult leaders. As usual, we'll be using our initials to identify ourselves -- KH for Keith Harary and JL for Janja Lalich.
MsgId: *live_science(6)
Date: Thu May 1 18:35:27 PDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_and_Janja_Lalich At: 152.163.206.151

KH: Welcome to Live Science, Janja.
MsgId: *live_science(7)
Date: Thu May 1 18:36:09 PDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_and_Janja_Lalich At: 152.163.206.151

JL: Thank you, Keith. It's great to be here.
MsgId: *live_science(8)
Date: Thu May 1 18:41:30 PDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_and_Janja_Lalich At: 152.163.197.38

KH: Janja, one of the questions that is not dealt with very much is the question of how cult leaders arrive at their methods. It seems curious, to say the least, that they all seem to have so much in common.
MsgId: *live_science(9)
Date: Thu May 1 18:43:07 PDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_and_Janja_Lalich At: 152.163.197.38

JL: I think there are two main reasons for that: The first is that they are using ordinary, everyday persuasion techniques that are packaged in a special way by them. Second, many of them have the same character defects.
MsgId: *live_science(10)
Date: Thu May 1 18:43:47 PDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_and_Janja_Lalich At: 152.163.197.38

KH: How would you describe those defects?
MsgId: *live_science(11)
Date: Thu May 1 18:47:00 PDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_and_Janja_Lalich At: 152.163.197.38

JL: In general, they fall within the psychological category of sociopath or psychopath. There is a commonly recognized profile of certain traits, such as superficial charm, manipulative behavior, sexual promiscuity and acting out, inability to love or have genuine feelings, lack of guilt, shame or remorse . . . In Marshall Applewhite's case, his sexual acting out was characterized by his own denial of sexual pleasures, which he then imposed on those around him.
MsgId: *live_science(13)
Date: Thu May 1 18:49:49 PDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_and_Janja_Lalich At: 152.163.237.170

KH: It does still seem strange to many people that many cult leaders not only have similar character defects, but often use the same kinds of techniques on their members -- such as sleep deprivation, control of information flow, trance induction, and so forth. Do you think they actually study these techiques or do they come naturally?
MsgId: *live_science(14)
Date: Thu May 1 18:52:39 PDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_and_Janja_Lalich At: 152.163.237.170

JL: First and foremost, cult leaders are about controlling their followers. They come across these techniques quite naturally because they are time-proven ways of controlling people. However, some do study behavior control and psychological persuasion. Many of the newer groups are also being formed by leaders who had previous experiences in a cult themselves and so observed and picked up on successful techniques.
MsgId: *live_science(12)
Date: Thu May 1 18:47:49 PDT 1997
From: guest At: 207.159.82.12

Are you aware of any research regarding commonalities in family-of-origin issues among cult members?
MsgId: *live_science(15)
Date: Thu May 1 18:55:07 PDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_and_Janja_Lalich At: 152.163.237.170

JL: From all the research that has been done to date, most people who join cults do not come from any particular type of family or background. Common characteristics are that they are generally of above-average intelligence, have some college education, are from stable backgrounds, and do not have pre-existing psychological difficulties. Cults are equal opportunity victimizers!
MsgId: *live_science(16)
Date: Thu May 1 18:57:15 PDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_and_Janja_Lalich At: 152.163.237.170

KH: It does seem to surprise many people to learn that those who join cults are generally of above average intelligence. How do you explain this fact, Janja, since the common misperception is that all cult members are losers, are not very bright, and therefore fall easy prey?
MsgId: *live_science(17)
Date: Thu May 1 19:00:07 PDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_and_Janja_Lalich At: 152.163.197.35

JL: You must bear in mind that cults exist to recruit and retain followers who will become deployable agents for the leader. Cults look for productive, creative, high-functioning individuals who can perform for the cult by running their businesses, fund-raising, recruiting, doing public relations work, etc. Cults don't want lazy, self-indulgent, people who want to be taken care of. Cults also pose as some kind of answer or means to a better world or a better life and therefore attract curious, idealistic, bright people willing to try new things.
MsgId: *live_science(18)
Date: Thu May 1 19:01:22 PDT 1997
From: guest At: 207.159.82.12

What is the role of critical thinking in the process of group involvement?
MsgId: *live_science(19)
Date: Thu May 1 19:03:33 PDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_and_Janja_Lalich At: 152.163.197.35

JL: Intelligence also is not a protective shield. Everybody is vulnerable at some time. The kinds of psychological pressures that are used in these groups are such that to be human is to succumb. These pressures include inducing guilt, fear and anxiety, a great deal of peer pressure to which all of us respond normally as social animals, attacking a person's sense of self through various measures such as humiliation, group criticism, overwork, extensive sleep deprivation and various hypnotic techniques, and in some cases control of diet and daily activities.

With regard to critical thinking: The goal of the techniques I just listed is to hinder and shut down a person's critical thinking abilities. In these environments, where there is a planned effort to transform you, it is very difficult to hold on to your sense of self and your ability to think clearly and evaluate what is going on. That is why the recruitment process is often very rushed -- to keep the recruit moving so fast, closer into the group, and away from their normal reality so that they can't stop and ask, "What's going on here?" Even the strongest minds are susceptible to flattery, guilt, fear, and the forms of hypnotic suggestion that we see over and over again in cultic groups. By hypnosis I mean indirect suggestion -- not holding a watch in front of a person's face and informing them you are going to hypnotize them. There are many ways to put a person in a mild form of trance and temporarily remove them from their general reality orientation. During that time, a person is more suggestible, more compliant, and less likely to question.


MsgId: *live_science(21)
Date: Thu May 1 19:09:26 PDT 1997
From: guest At: 207.53.94.72

Hello Janja ! Jim M here, ex-member of The Way. What is your opinion concerning The Way international? Do you think the potential is there for another major problem similar to the other major disasters ?
MsgId: *live_science(23)
Date: Thu May 1 19:14:22 PDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_and_Janja_Lalich At: 152.163.237.170

JL: Regarding The Way: As a former member, you probably have a great deal of first-hand information that would surpass my knowledge of the group from working with some former members. The Way is a group that many people are concerned about. It uses techniques similar to those we have been discussing.
MsgId: *live_science(24)
Date: Thu May 1 19:17:24 PDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_and_Janja_Lalich At: 152.163.237.170

KH: One of the interesting things I have found, Janja, is that people who have been in cults often say that they were not brainwashed. They believe that they were acting of their own free will in following a given leader. Of course, people rarely if ever say that they are in a cult -- at least while they are still involved. How do you explain their viewpoint?
MsgId: *live_science(25)
Date: Thu May 1 19:20:02 PDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_and_Janja_Lalich At: 152.163.237.170

JL: The process of cult indoctrination gets the members to adopt the thinking and world view of the leader and once a person has bought into the logic, they are convinced that they are making their own choices. Unless a person gets educated, or educates themselves, about the system of persuasion and manipulation that they were a part of they can go on for many years carrying that same thinking.

Additionally, there is no social support for former cult members. In fact, there is a stigma attached. It makes it very difficult, then, for a person to be able to find help or acceptance. Having been taken in by a psychological con artist should not be a criticism of the victim but a charge against the perpetrator. Thankfully, as a society, we have learned not to blame women for getting raped. Hopefully, one day, as a society, we'll have a more conscious understanding of this issue as well.


MsgId: *live_science(27)
Date: Thu May 1 19:22:18 PDT 1997
From: guest At: 207.53.94.72

While I was in TWI we use to brag that we were brainwashed for GOD when in reality we were used as money-making machines so that the folks in charge could live a life style of luxury. -- jim m
MsgId: *live_science(26)
Date: Thu May 1 19:21:13 PDT 1997
From: guest At: 207.159.82.12

J.L. : What would you characterize as warning signs that one is being unduly influenced by an individual or group?
MsgId: *live_science(29)
Date: Thu May 1 19:27:09 PDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_and_Janja_Lalich At: 152.163.237.170

JL: About warning signs: Instant friendships. Easy answers. Using guilt to get you to act. Taking recruits to isolated places for workshops or training. Turning questions back on you. Pressure to act right away -- this is your only chance. Telling you to do something because other people are also doing it. Suggesting you not associate with critics or non-members. These are just a few warning signs to watch for.
MsgId: *live_science(30)
Date: Thu May 1 19:29:44 PDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_and_Janja_Lalich At: 152.163.237.170

KH: One of the taboo subjects, Janja, is that the cult experience is not entirely negative. It would seem unlikely, after all, that people would be initially attracted to something that seemed all bad. It also often happens that former members report that they have gotten something positive out of their experience. How do you explain this or reconcile it with all the negative aspects of the whole cult phenomenon?
MsgId: *live_science(31)
Date: Thu May 1 19:36:31 PDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_and_Janja_Lalich At: 152.163.237.170

JL: Cults present a philosophy or worldview that will always contain positive ideas, goals or concepts. Otherwise, no one would be taken in to begin with. But that philosophy turns out to be a facade meant to draw people in and the reality of membership and daily life is usually quite different. However, most people do have some positive experiences during their cult involvement. These usually revolve around meeting some of the best people in the world -- the other members not the leaders -- learning new skills, learning about themselves, and often coincidentally learning how much they can endure. But in most cases, the negatives outweigh the positives which is why most people eventually leave these groups or try to leave. Afterwards, it is very important to examine the good and the bad so that the person can integrate the experience into their new life.
MsgId: *live_science(33)
Date: Thu May 1 19:38:12 PDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_and_Janja_Lalich At: 152.163.237.170

KH: Looks like we are out of time, Janja. But before we go, can you please tell our listeners the titles of your books and where you can be reached for further information?
MsgId: *live_science(34)
Date: Thu May 1 19:40:49 PDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_and_Janja_Lalich At: 152.163.237.170

JL: Thank you Keith, you are too kind. My books are: CAPTIVE HEARTS, CAPTIVE MINDS published by Hunter House, and CULTS IN OUR MIDST and "CRAZY" THERAPIES, both published by Jossey Bass. I can be reached via e-mail at: janja@crl.com, or by phone at (510) 522-1556. Thanks for having me on the show.
MsgId: *live_science(35)
Date: Thu May 1 19:43:16 PDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_and_Janja_Lalich At: 152.163.237.170

KH: Thank you, Janja, for being our guest here in Live Science. Thanks also to our hosts here at Omni and, especially, to our live audience for your questions and interest. This is Omni Editor at Large, Keith Harary, wishing you all a good night for Live Science. Please remember to check out the rest of our running series on cults right here in the Live Science section.


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