Prime Time Replay:


Joel Kramer and Diana Alstad
on the Many Faces of Authoritarianism



MsgId: *live_science(3)
Date: Tue May 6 18:23:53 PDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Joel At: 152.172.148.135

Good evening and welcome to Live Science. I'm your host, Dr. Keith Harary, Editor at Large of Omni. Our special, in studio, guests tonight are Joel Kramer and Diana Alstad, authors of the critically acclaimed book THE GURU PAPERS: MASKS OF AUTHORITARIAN POWER. Our discussion tonight will focus on hidden authoritarianism. As usual, we'll be identifying ourselves by our initials: KH for Keith Harary, JK for Joel Kramer, and DA for Diana Alstad. This is an open chat so please feel free to join us and ask questions.

Welcome to Live Science, Joel and Diana. We have a lot to discuss, so let's get right into it. To begin: The topic of cults has once again heated up. And, once again, we are hearing the usual line from people who feel immune to such so-called insanity. That is, people seem to feel that they are immune and wonder how others could fall prey to such an authoritarian movement pushing such crazy beliefs. Comments?

MsgId: *live_science(6)
Date: Tue May 6 18:33:10 PDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Joel At: 152.172.148.135

JK: Keith, these cults are just an extreme extention of a phenomenon in society that interests me more. That is they question of why people involve themselves in authoritarian structures of any kind. Briefly, let me define what I mean by authoritarian.

When a person or ideology or group is what we call "feedback proof," meaning that no one or nothing external to the authority in the group can change things then it is authoritarian. We also define authoritarian as any person or ideology that assumes they know what's best for others. Under these definitions, many of the social structures of the world are authoritarian. The very nature of being unchallengeable and of wanting an authority to tell you what is right for you, or what to do, is a deep part of how the world works.

MsgId: *live_science(8)
Date: Tue May 6 18:37:58 PDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Joel At: 152.172.148.135

DA: People have been conditioned to mistrust themselves and this leads them to give their power away. We can get into how and why later. Also, emotionally, cults hook your deep desires and hopes and manipulate your fears and desires. They also undermine people's critical capacities and further exaggerate their existing self mistrust.
MsgId: *live_science(10)
Date: Tue May 6 18:41:01 PDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Joel At: 152.172.148.135

KH: You seem to be saying that cults are only exaggerating our existing authoritarian tendencies. But, even so, most people do not go to the extreme of joining a cult. Do you think we are all vulnerable, or are some of us much less vulnerable to authoritarianism than others?
MsgId: *live_science(11)
Date: Tue May 6 18:43:22 PDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Joel At: 152.172.148.135

JK: Of course, as with many tings, there is a spectrum of vulnerability. And where one stands on that spectrum is an individual call. I cannot say for any specific human being where they lie in terms of how easily an autyhoritarian structure will manipulate them. But I can say, however, that historically and to date the most prevalent way of maintaining power has been and is to condition people to susceptibility toward authoritarianism.
MsgId: *live_science(12)
Date: Tue May 6 18:44:27 PDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Joel At: 152.172.148.135

DA: In terms of joining cults, one can generalize that people in extreme situations are more vulnerable -- extreme losses, pain, loneliness, crises, and the young are particularly vulnerable.
MsgId: *live_science(13)
Date: Tue May 6 18:46:28 PDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Joel At: 152.172.148.135

KH: Without getting too abstract, let me ask an obvious question. How can we possibly get along without some final authority to make the big decisions? We need elected officials, for example, don't we? This seems very different from the kind of dictatorship we saw in Jonestown, or Heaven's Gate, or the Branch Davidians, or -- indeed -- any other cult. Is there such a thing as healthy authoritarianism?
MsgId: *live_science(14)
Date: Tue May 6 18:49:13 PDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Joel At: 152.172.148.135

JK: That's a complex question. First, we must emphatically state that we are not opposed to authority and we distinguish between authority and authoritarianism very carefully in our book. The distinguishing characteristics are related back to our initial definition of what authoritarianism is, we do not question the need for authority which can be justified in many ways as a function of knowledge, skill, elections, or a person placing themselves under the guidance of another as long as that guidance is just guidance and not control. But the issue is more complex because in life there may be situations where authoritarian control cannot be done away with -- certain aspects of childrearing, for example. You don't leave a three year old in the freeway no matter what it wants. However, in an overall way, the really interesting question is what is, in this day and age, the problem with authoritarianism considering that it has been around for thousands of years and has been an intimate part of the functioning of the world. I'd like to address that question. In a static world, where change is either slow or not valued at all, as it has been throughout much of human history, authoritarianism although it has caused human suffering has also been the fast way to get things done. However, we now live in a world of accelerated change. It is our thesis that in order to properly problem solve in a time of accelerated change it is essential to be sensistive and take into account the nature of the changes that are taking place around you. Authoritarianism by its nature and structure is a filtering device that keeps new information out because it is predicated on maintaining the power that has come through tradition. It is our point that as a species we no longer have the luxury to do that. So I would say authoritarianism itself as a mode of information transference is essentially unhealthy for these times.
MsgId: *live_science(18)
Date: Tue May 6 18:56:45 PDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Joel At: 152.172.148.135

DA: Anything that blocks information and feedback is counter-survival because we need all the information, understanding, creativity, and intelligence we can muster to survive and to improve the quality of life.
MsgId: *live_science(19)
Date: Tue May 6 18:59:05 PDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Joel At: 152.172.148.135

KH: You seem to be hinting at the possibility that cults may be on the rise as a response to the fast pace of change. Certainly, cult leaders have a habit of narrowing things down very quickly. If that is true, then cults may be a kind of inevitable response to accelerated change. How, then, can we hope to protect ourselves and yet continue to move forward scientifically, technically, and in other more positive social arenas?
MsgId: *live_science(20)
Date: Tue May 6 19:02:16 PDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Joel At: 152.172.148.135

JK: This is a mult-layered question and to do it justice I must answer it in a multi-layered way. First, I see that where we are situated historically is not only a time of accelerated change but part of this change is that all traditional moral orders are breaking down. When this occurs, there are two predictable movements of response on the part of human beings. One is to try to find solutions to new problems. The other is to blame the problems on lapsing from the verities of old. The solution offered by the latter is to attempt to rely on those verities more and harder. The worldwide trend toward dundamentalism, which is essentially autoritarian, is an example of this latter approach. History in our times is tearing itself in these two directions so that one can predict that there will be on one side an increase in the attempt at fundamentalist solutions of which cults are an extreme aspect. However, their solutions got us where we are today and will not solve the problems of a world of accelerated change. So what to do?

JK: I cannot tell others what to do, That would be authoritarian! I can only tell you what we are doing. Diana and I are trying to put hidden authoritarianism on the map of consciousness so that people can be alerted to its structure, prevalence and dangers and why they might be more susceptible to it than they think. We have seen, in short periods of time, when people become alert to something obvious, like sex roles in relationships that feminism revealed, it becomes part of the vernacular and people are aware of it and deal with it as they can.

MsgId: *live_science(23)
Date: Tue May 6 19:11:57 PDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Joel At: 152.172.148.135

DA: These are times of great stress for most people and cults initially reduce the stress by simplifying the world and escaping from it. Surrendering to an unchallengeable authority, at first, brings great conflict reduction, peace, and even passion as people believe they are on the road to salvation. The sense of community is extraordinary when everybody's beliefs are deeply aligned. But this sense of community, which is so lacking in our world, comes at the price of having huge walls between insiders and outsiders. The members speak of unity while separating from the world and feeling superior to it. This is not new. This is old. But eventually, these very walls cause great stress, which is why cults start out feeling optimistic and wonderful in their expansive phase and as membership plateaus, the leader increases the control over the members and gets paranoid when he or she sees the limits of his or her capacity to seduce the world. So, this brings further isolation, paranoia, and stress. So we're back to where we started, with great stress. from which there is no escape. If the paranoia is extreme, an apocalyptic phase ensues which could bring on the deaths or some or all of the members. One never knows when one surrenders to another's absolute power where it will lead. But these two phases are somewhat predictable. So, you see, escaping from stress through surrender to another is like a Siren song that one follows at great peril.
MsgId: *live_science(25)
Date: Tue May 6 19:18:55 PDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Joel At: 152.172.148.135

KH: Certainly, we can see a similar sense of belonging and shared beliefs in mainstream religion, and even in other groups. Do you think that such a process is somehow less dangerous within such settings? Is it possible that we are programmed to respond to authority by early experiences in organized religion? Or, conversely, do you think such experiences may provide a kind of moral supports that makes one more immune to the extremes of cults?
MsgId: *live_science(26)
Date: Tue May 6 19:23:28 PDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Joel At: 152.172.148.135

JK: Again, a complex question. First, let's distinguish between a cult and other authoritarian groups. We feel the one telling difference between them is that, in a cult, leadership within the group has no constraints. In other authoritarian structures, the Catholic Church being but one example, leadership is constrained by its history and tradition. The Pope could say that everyone should kill themselves to get to heaven, but this goes against the Church's position and traditions. No Pope can do this. The Pope is constrained. Consequently, structurally, non-constrained leaders are indeed more dangerous. But that does not eliminate the more subtle dangers of mind control that other authoritarian groups program.

Religion has been the historic purveyor of morality. As I intimated earlier, the moral fabric is unraveling because the worldviews that the morality of religions are embedded in can no longer meet the challenges of these times. These worldviews are all essentially authoritarian where some greater-than-human intelligence, be its gods, prophets, enlightened beings, and the like, tell the rest of us what the world is about and how we should live in it. The very nature of being such an intelligence is that it is unchallengeable, thus authoritarian. So, to answer the second part of your question, I would say -- no -- the so-called moral training so derived does not make you more immune.

MsgId: *live_science(28)
Date: Tue May 6 19:30:36 PDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Joel At: 152.172.148.135

DA: Although the Pope cannot kill individuals directly, or have them kill themselves, as cult leaders can, he can and does kill people indirectly through, for example, telling people not to wear condoms in a time of AIDS. This is asking people to die for the sake of belief in the Catholic traditions, a cult-like behavior. He can also threaten the species survival through telling people to have babies in a time of over-population. So, although the Pope in general might do less harm to individuals than a cult leader such as Koresh, he actually does far more harm to society because he is far more powerful and his pronouncements affect billions by asking them to do something that is no longer viable for this species, which is to reproduce unconsciously. Cults and religions, whether Eastern or Western, specialize in offering individuals comfort and personal salvation through beliefs while often ignoring the social implications of the beliefs and moralities they put forth. These social implications are usually counter-survival, as we discuss in The Guru Papers.
MsgId: *live_science(30)
Date: Tue May 6 19:33:56 PDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Joel At: 152.172.148.135

KH: Well, we're out of time so we'll have to end on that controversial note. Thank you Joel Kramer and Diana Alstad, authors of THE GURU PAPERS: MASKS OF AUTHORITARIAN POWER, for joining us here in Live Science tonight.
MsgId: *live_science(31)
Date: Tue May 6 19:34:46 PDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Joel At: 152.172.148.135

JK: Thank you for asking the kinds of questions, Keith, that enabled us to talk about what is in our hearts and minds.
MsgId: *live_science(32)
Date: Tue May 6 19:36:15 PDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Joel At: 152.172.148.135

KH: Thank you, also, to our hosts here at Omni, and to our viewing audience. We invite you to check out the rest of our ongoing series on cults here in our Live Science section this month. I'm your host, Dr. Keith Harary, wishing you all a good night for Live Science.


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