Prime Time Replay:


Patricia Ryan
on anti-cult activism



MsgId: *live_science(1)
Date: Fri May 16 18:50:18 EDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Patricia_Ryan At: 152.163.195.165

Good evening and welcome to Live Science. I'm your host, Omni Editor at Large, Dr. Keith Harary. Our special guest tonight will be Patricia Ryan. Ms. Ryan is Vice President for Behavioral Health and Governance at the California Healthcare Association in Sacramento, Califorina. She previously worked as a legislative advocate for both the American Psychiatric Association and the National Association of Private Psychiatric Hospitals in Washington, D.C., and was legislative assistant to two members of Congress -- Rep. Tom Lantos (D-CA) and Rep Richard Ottinger (D-NY). Ms. Ryan holds a master's degree in Public Administration from the George Washington University in Washington, D.C.

On November 18, 1978 in Jonestown, Guyana Ms. Ryan's father, Congressman Leo J. Ryan (D-CA), was gunned down by followers of People's Temple cult leader Jim Jones, which set off a mass murder and suicide of over 900 men, women and children that shook the world. Ms. Ryan has been an outspoken critic of the unethical and illegal practices of destructive cults and a spokesperson for the rights of cult victims ever since. She has spoken at both national and international meetings and conferences about the dangers of destructive cults, and has been frequently interviewed by national and international media. Ms. Ryan served for six years on the Board of Directors of the national Cult Awareness Network (CAN), including three years as President.

In 1984, Patricia was instrumental in convincing U.S. Congress to bestow a posthumous Congressional Gold Medal on her father. As always, we'll identify ourselves by our intitials: KH for Keith Harary, and PR for Patricia Ryan. We invite you to join us here in Omni Live Science.

MsgId: *live_science(5)
Date: Fri May 16 19:00:20 EDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Patricia_Ryan At: 152.163.195.165

KH: Welcome to Omni Live Science, Pat Ryan. To begin our discussion, it is clear that you have a very personal experience with the cult phenomenon. What would you say, based on your experience, to those who believe that it is nobody's concern if a person feels like joining a cult group. That is -- it's a free country, right?
MsgId: *live_science(6)
Date: Fri May 16 19:02:32 EDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Patricia_Ryan At: 152.163.195.165

PR: Well, what I would say to people who say it is nobody's concern if a person feels like joining a cult is that this opinion would appear to be OK in this country until somebody in your family joins a cult and you learn more about the cult and the cult phenomenon and realize that the person may not have been able to exercise the free will that we all think we have because of the psychological techniques being used on them against their will or knowledge in many cases.
MsgId: *live_science(7)
Date: Fri May 16 19:03:14 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 146.186.16.102

What is the status of the lawsuits against the Church of Scientology?
MsgId: *live_science(8)
Date: Fri May 16 19:04:51 EDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Patricia_Ryan At: 152.163.195.165

KH: As a person who has been touched directly by events in your own family, you certainly have a different perspective than those who study cults in a purely academic context. We've all heard a lot about the kinds of techniques cults use, and we've explored those quite a bit here in Omni. My question for you, Pat, is what do you think we can responsibly do in response to the cult threat?
MsgId: *live_science(9)
Date: Fri May 16 19:07:55 EDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Patricia_Ryan At: 152.163.195.165

PR: What I think we can do to respond to the cult threat is to educate ourselves and our children about the techniques cults use and about the fact that there are groups out there that are intent on taking advantage of you or someone you know for power or financial gain. We need to arm ourselves with critical thinking skills, and particularly our kids, so that we are all forearmed and forewarned when we come across these people and are not so gullible.
MsgId: *live_science(10)
Date: Fri May 16 19:09:14 EDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Patricia_Ryan At: 152.163.195.165

KH: Has anyone, to your knowledge, thought about possibly making such instruction a part of the school curriculum? Could it be done without attacking specific groups or infringing on the First Amendment?
MsgId: *live_science(11)
Date: Fri May 16 19:11:09 EDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Patricia_Ryan At: 152.163.195.165

PR: I absolutely think that is something we should do and I know that there is some work being done in this area. There was an educator back in Maryland who developed a draft criteria and was trying to convince local colleges to incorporate it into their programs. I do believe it can and should be done without any threat to our First Amendment. It doesn't have to include any mention of religion whatsoever.
MsgId: *live_science(12)
Date: Fri May 16 19:12:24 EDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Patricia_Ryan At: 152.163.195.165

KH: College would seem to be a little late, perhaps, though also an important place to reach people. What about lobbying to get such instruction into the elementary and junior high school curriculum?
MsgId: *live_science(13)
Date: Fri May 16 19:12:28 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 146.186.16.102

What caused the demise of CAN?
MsgId: *live_science(14)
Date: Fri May 16 19:16:32 EDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Patricia_Ryan At: 152.163.195.165

PR: I think it is a very good idea to try to get this curriculum into our public schools as quickly as possible. I'd love to see people lobby for that, though I've become cynical in my old age of being involved in politics since I was a child. I don't think that it would be a successful effort if anyone in any way would frame it so that it could be interpreted as an anti-religious issue or effort. I would like to see people become more concerned and take more action in educating their local education officials and encouraging them to take some action in this area -- in spite of my own cynicism.
MsgId: *live_science(15)
Date: Fri May 16 19:18:41 EDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Patricia_Ryan At: 152.163.195.165

KH: I'm sure that this is a sensitive subject, Pat. But you have been very directly touched by cults. Would you be willing to share with us some of your own experiences? Certainly, we all know of your father and his heroic efforts in dealing with the Peoples Temple. It surprises me that that event did not do more to make people think twice about cults.
MsgId: *live_science(16)
Date: Fri May 16 19:21:08 EDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Patricia_Ryan At: 152.163.195.165

PR: Actually, I think that what happened in Jonestown 18 years ago and what happened with Waco and with the Solar Temple and most recently Heaven's Gate have done a lot to increase the public consciousness about cults and make them realize that it is not a problem that is going away. But I think that, like a lot of other public issues, unless people are personally affected by the problem they don't pay much attention to it . . .
MsgId: *live_science(17)
Date: Fri May 16 19:23:37 EDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Patricia_Ryan At: 152.163.195.165

PR: I work in the public health policy arena in California and deal specifically with Mental Health issues. I often equate mental illness and the public's knowledge and reaction to that and the stigma attached to it to cults -- because unless you are personally affected, it's just that those people are crazy and it's not something that affects me so why should I worry about it? After having been very dramatically affected by cults in my life, not once but twice, I know personally how devastating it can be to family members.
MsgId: *live_science(18)
Date: Fri May 16 19:24:39 EDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Patricia_Ryan At: 152.163.195.165

KH: We all know about what I assume was the first time, with your father, Congressman Leo J. Ryan. But what about the second time?
MsgId: *live_science(19)
Date: Fri May 16 19:26:13 EDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Patricia_Ryan At: 152.163.195.165

PR: The second time was when my sister joined a cult less than a year and a half after my father's death. What I and my family experienced as a result of that was I think a classic family experience, which was to see a family member change dramatically -- almost instantly -- before our eyes and not really be able to do anything about it.
MsgId: *live_science(20)
Date: Fri May 16 19:27:07 EDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Patricia_Ryan At: 152.163.195.165

KH: It seems a little more than unbelievable, Pat, that your sister could get drawn into a cult considering what your family was put through at the hands of Jim Jones.
MsgId: *live_science(21)
Date: Fri May 16 19:32:25 EDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Patricia_Ryan At: 152.163.195.165

PR: Yes, it seems unbelievable to you. It was even more so to our family -- to put it mildly. What I would also say is that even though my father had been murdered by a cult shortly before, I and my family probably knew as little about cults as anyone else and really didn't know how to handle it. It's pretty illustrative of the fact that if someone could get sucked in who was more than alert to the fact that cults are dangerous than I believe that it could happen to anyone if they are approached in the right way at the right point in their life . . .
MsgId: *live_science(22)
Date: Fri May 16 19:32:46 EDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Patricia_Ryan At: 152.163.195.165

PR: Actually, if you think about it, my sister was at a very vulnerable point in her life. What we all went through not only with my father's death but also with the public's eye on all of us was enough to crack anyone. Someone just happened to have approached my sister with an appeal that worked because, in fact, when she left to find out something about this group, her family was concerned. We told her, be careful. We didn't want her to join a cult because we knew a little about the guy she was going to listen to. She laughed and said that she wasn't stupid enough to get involved in a cult.
MsgId: *live_science(23)
Date: Fri May 16 19:38:22 EDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Patricia_Ryan At: 152.163.195.165

PR: She went off to India, so she was a captive audience. The next we heard from her was about a month later, when she wrote my mother and described how she had become a sanyassin, which is a follower of Rajneesh. she described her conversion as like being hit by a bolt of lightning. She informed us that she had changed her name, that she was going to stay in India for as long as her visa was good -- three months, and that when she came back to the United States she would be going to New Jersey to work in a Rajneesh commune to pave the way for Rajneesh to come to America . . .
MsgId: *live_science(24)
Date: Fri May 16 19:38:46 EDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Patricia_Ryan At: 152.163.195.165

PR: Let me just say that the difficult with being a family member of somebody who changes like that, so dramatically, who is an adult, is that as much as you are concerned about her safety and happiness, you don't know how far to go to express your concern for fear of alienating her completely, or when to back off and just let her choice take its course. The real dilemma for us was that we saw what happened in Peoples Temple . . .
MsgId: *live_science(25)
Date: Fri May 16 19:41:52 EDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Patricia_Ryan At: 152.163.195.165

PR: but we saw her putting distance between us whenever we tried to express concern. Because she was so far away, it was like walking a tightrope trying to know what was the right thing to do. I know now, having studied the issue and met so many other people who have been affected, that thousands of families are experiencing this same dilemma every year. Every time a Heaven's Gate happens, the dilemma becomes even more acute. One of the other difficult aspects of this is that with most cult leaders that I have learned about, one of the first techniques that they use to control their members is to cut off contact or relationships with their family and former friends.
MsgId: *live_science(26)
Date: Fri May 16 19:43:04 EDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Patricia_Ryan At: 152.163.195.165

KH: I need to ask you two questions, Pat. First, what happened to your sister? Where is she now? Also, based on your own experiences, do you have any advice for family members of those who join cults?
MsgId: *live_science(27)
Date: Fri May 16 19:45:38 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 207.146.54.222

so what are we talking about here
MsgId: *live_science(28)
Date: Fri May 16 19:49:26 EDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Patricia_Ryan At: 152.163.195.165

PR: Your first question first: My sister's group pretty much disbanded in 1985 when Rajneesh was deported back to India. I could write a book about our experiences with her while she was in Oregon as one of the founding members of that commune. The bottom line about where she is in connection to our family is that she is living in California . . .
MsgId: *live_science(29)
Date: Fri May 16 19:54:53 EDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Patricia_Ryan At: 152.163.195.165

PR: My sisters and brothers and I have occasional contact with her, but the relationship has never been the same since she joined the cult. She and I discussed the issue of cults only once. It was so devastating to me to hear her perception of me and what I've been doing for the past 15 years or so, because she sees me as the enemy. It's clear that she's rewritten what happened in Jonestown in her mind . . .
MsgId: *live_science(30)
Date: Fri May 16 19:55:33 EDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Patricia_Ryan At: 152.163.195.165

PR: It's clear, also, that even though Rajneesh died in the late '80's, she still has posters of his sayings on her walls and she continues to block news from the outside because it threatens her view of the world. She continues to believe that there was some kind of government conspiracy that killed Rajneesh . . .
MsgId: *live_science(31)
Date: Fri May 16 19:55:59 EDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Patricia_Ryan At: 152.163.195.165

PR: . I see her as a very sad individual and there is really no meaningful communication between her and the rest of the family . . . I should add that my mother died very unexpectedly in 1981 while my sister was in the cult, so had she lived I think she might have been a conduit between my sister and the rest of us. But the good news is that she is no longer living with the group, because at one point I was very concerned with her safety and the safety of the community around her. So even though I feel sad for her and our family, I know that she is safe.
MsgId: *live_science(32)
Date: Fri May 16 19:57:04 EDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Patricia_Ryan At: 152.163.195.165

KH: What is her view of Jonestown?
MsgId: *live_science(33)
Date: Fri May 16 20:00:17 EDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Patricia_Ryan At: 152.163.195.165

PR: I'm not sure about what her view of Jonestown is, although I think it is different from mine and the rest of the world's. I say this because the one conversation we had that brought all of this contentiousness out was when I stopped by to see her immediately following a Jonestown memorial ceremony that was held in Oakland on November 18th -- the anniversary of Jonestown. She asked me how the ceremony was but she asked it in a very smirking kind of way, like she was making fun of the fact that I had participated in something like that. I asked why she thought that was funny. That's what led to the whole unpleasant conversation about cults.
MsgId: *live_science(34)
Date: Fri May 16 20:01:06 EDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Patricia_Ryan At: 152.163.195.165

KH: And back to the other question, Pat. What advice do you have for family members of those who become involved in cults?
MsgId: *live_science(35)
Date: Fri May 16 20:07:03 EDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Patricia_Ryan At: 152.163.195.165

PR: My advice for other family members is to learn as much as you can about cults in general and how they work. A good resource for that, fortunately now, is the Internet although you have to weed through some of the garbage . . .
MsgId: *live_science(36)
Date: Fri May 16 20:07:41 EDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Patricia_Ryan At: 152.163.195.165

PR: Find out as much as you can about the particular group that your family member is involved in, see if you can find out in your local area where there is a support group of other family members you can talk to, in the Bay Area I know there is an organization called Free Minds Alliance. You may also, again, be able to talk to others though the Internet . . .
MsgId: *live_science(37)
Date: Fri May 16 20:08:07 EDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Patricia_Ryan At: 152.163.195.165

PR: Try to keep the lines of communication open with your family member and be as non-judgemental as possible. If that works, and you have an opportunity, there are people called Exit Counselors who are experienced at family interventions, and by that I don't mean involuntary interventions, but who are experienced at helping you to communicate with the family member and try to bring some new information to that family member that he or she may not be aware of. I should say that most family members don't go to that next step and my family didn't either. But if you feel particularly that your family member may be in danger, it may be something worth at least talking about. It would only work if you had good communication with the family member and that person consented to talking to someone else.
MsgId: *live_science(38)
Date: Fri May 16 20:09:57 EDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Patricia_Ryan At: 152.163.195.165

KH: We're just about out of time, Pat. With your permission, I would like to ask one last personal question. People remember your father as the Congressman who investigated Jim Jones and gave his life in the process. I would like to ask you, however, how you would really like your father, Leo Ryan, to be remembered.
MsgId: *live_science(39)
Date: Fri May 16 20:13:17 EDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Patricia_Ryan At: 152.163.195.165

PR: I'm glad you asked that question because it is very sad and frustrating to me that for most people that is the way he is remembered . . .
MsgId: *live_science(40)
Date: Fri May 16 20:13:44 EDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Patricia_Ryan At: 152.163.195.165

PR: But in a nutshell, I think people should know that he was a very unique public servant who took his job very seriously, who respected and enjoyed representing his constituents, and who felt it was his responsibility to research and find out firsthand what the impact would be of his policy decisions. Without going into some of the other things he did in his life, I think the record shows that he did just that. From my, personal, perspective, I thought that all politicians or representatives were like my father and didn't realize until after he was gone that that was very far from the truth. I wish that there were more like him.
MsgId: *live_science(41)
Date: Fri May 16 20:14:52 EDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Patricia_Ryan At: 152.163.195.165

KH: Thank you, Pat Ryan, for a very moving look at the personal impact of cults on the family. We're out of time for tonight's show, but it was a pleasure to have you as our guest here at Omni.
MsgId: *live_science(42)
Date: Fri May 16 20:16:11 EDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Patricia_Ryan At: 152.163.195.165

PR: Thank you. It was a unique experience that I enjoyed, and I hope what I had to offer was helpful to others.
MsgId: *live_science(43)
Date: Fri May 16 20:17:45 EDT 1997
From: Keith_Harary_with_Patricia_Ryan At: 152.163.195.165

KH: This is Omni Editor at Large, Keith Harary, signing off for tonight's Live Science interview. Thank you to our viewing audience and to our hosts here at Omni. We invite our viewers to check out the rest of our ongoing series on cults here in Omni Live Science. Good night.


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