Prime Time Replay:
Martin Caidin
on Cybernetics
MsgId: *brain_storm(6)
Date: Fri Nov 1 22:00:12 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_Ph.D._(host)_with_Martin_Caidin At: 206.80.165.37
Good evening and welcome to tonight's edition of BRAINSTORMS. Our guest tonight is legendary writer, aviator and visionary, Martin Caidin. Caidin's famous book CYBORG not only led to the two hit television series: The Six Million Dollar Man and The Bionic Woman, it also introduced the terms "cyborg," "cybernetics," and "bionics" into our language. Welcome Marty.
MsgId: *brain_storm(7)
Date: Fri Nov 1 22:02:06 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_Ph.D._(host)_with_Martin_Caidin At: 206.80.165.37
MC: This is the first time that I have done a broadcast to such a big audience! Usually, I've done broadcasts from over Cape Kennedy in airplanes, discussing the entire roster of American and other ballistic and military missles at their launch.
MsgId: *brain_storm(8)
Date: Fri Nov 1 22:03:42 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_Ph.D._(host)_with_Martin_Caidin At: 206.80.165.37
KH: One thing I want to mention to our audience, is that this is an open chat. If you have any questions for our guest please post them and we will ask him to respond. First question, Marty -- What first got you interested in bionics and cybernetics, and how did you come up with these terms?
MsgId: *brain_storm(9)
Date: Fri Nov 1 22:06:52 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_Ph.D._(host)_with_Martin_Caidin At: 206.80.165.37
MC: You might just a well have asked me how I first got interested in sex! It is as natural as falling off a log. You don't have to work at it. Every youngster has a natural fantasy of being like Superman. It is a lot easier to swerve or twist suddenly and instinctively in following a natural tendency than it is to follow a routine dictated through electronics or mechanics. Cybernetics or bionics blends together instinct and biological performance with mechanics.
MsgId: *brain_storm(11)
Date: Fri Nov 1 22:12:26 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_Ph.D._(host)_with_Martin_Caidin At: 206.80.165.37
KH: What about the terminology?
MsgId: *brain_storm(12)
Date: Fri Nov 1 22:16:28 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_Ph.D._(host)_with_Martin_Caidin At: 206.80.165.37
MC: Most people think that I originated the term "cyborg," which would be a cybernetic person who is patterned after a human being. Most people are not aware that the U.S. Air Force maintained a huge, but secret, bionics research program. The term was originated by Major Jack Steele, who was part of the Air Force secret program, which was launched by trying to develop and electro-mechanical equivalent of a flying beetle. At the time that the term was first used, it was still kept from the general public. But my book, Cyborg, kept everything fictional but it was about fictional situations in which real cybernetic science was put to full use.The question was raised among Congressional leaders from the very beginning of the program -- which I had heard rumblings about at the time, and the more I looked into it the more likely it seemed that it was real -- could a Cyborg be built? Could a Cyborg be trained to act as a weapon? The answer on both counts was loud and distinct "yes!"
MsgId: *brain_storm(14)
Date: Fri Nov 1 22:19:45 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_Ph.D._(host)_with_Martin_Caidin At: 206.80.165.37
KH: Are you suggesting that our government actually tried to do such a thing? What was that you said a moment ago, for example, about research on beetles?
MsgId: *brain_storm(15)
Date: Fri Nov 1 22:24:05 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_Ph.D._(host)_with_Martin_Caidin At: 206.80.165.37
MC: The first experiments in cybernetics used actual hardware, following the dictum of using bionetic science no matter what animals were involved. The Air Force noticed that a certain beetle flying at night or in the day was able to reach a point far from its nest and return exactly to the original point that it took off from, whether it could see or not. The beetle was able to take notice of when a rotating cylinder in its body was past a certain point. When it headed back toward its nest, it was able to automatically count the number of passages of the wheel in its body and recalling the number of times that it happened on the way out, determine when it had returned to the starting point.By adapting the biological system of that particular type of beetle to mechanical electronic systems, scientists were able to duplicate the actions of the beetle and actually successfully flew a bionic equivalent of the beetle during tests.
MsgId: *brain_storm(17)
Date: Fri Nov 1 22:26:50 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_Ph.D._(host)_with_Martin_Caidin At: 206.80.165.37
KH: Have their been instance of adapting such bionic systems directly to human beings, rather than from biological systems to machines?
MsgId: *brain_storm(18)
Date: Fri Nov 1 22:29:55 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_Ph.D._(host)_with_Martin_Caidin At: 206.80.165.37
MC: Both have been successful. In fact, the Congress has in its own pursuit of gaining information in this area, produced a number of publications which identify the terms, bionics, cyborg, cybernetics, and identify the areas which the government would follow in pursuing scientific research in bionic development. We found the answer to your question long before it had been asked. We built a system of porpoises that were used as weapons by the Navy. They took them underwater to test them under combat conditions. The cybernetic porpoises were used as partners with Navy Seals (humans) who were part of the Navy's underwater combat team. The porpoises could stay underwater for several hours, compared to the twenty minute maximum for natural porpoises. They were fitted with a long-life oxygen supply, and batteries to operate heaters to keep them warm in cold water if necessary, and also to allow them to maneuver within potential enemy territory without identifying themselves. They were used in combat in Vietnam.In reference to the question you asked before -- the biggest surprise was that it was sometimes very difficult to tell natural vs. cybernetic porpoises apart. Under the deep sea conditions, even the dolphins were sometimes fooled into believing the cybernetic porpoises were actual animals even though they were machines. The only difference was that we never found out until male porpoises who are known for their romantic proclivities would take off after a female natural porpoise. Of course, the purpose of giving the porpoises freedom of action in this area was to keep their movements as natural as possible to keep the artificial animals from being distinguished from the naturals.
MsgId: *brain_storm(23)
Date: Fri Nov 1 22:37:53 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_Ph.D._(host)_with_Martin_Caidin At: 206.80.165.37
KH: But what about applying cybernetic technology directly to human beings? Has this been done? Or will it be done in the future?
MsgId: *brain_storm(24)
Date: Fri Nov 1 22:40:01 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_Ph.D._(host)_with_Martin_Caidin At: 206.80.165.37
MC: Obviously, the same men who formed partnerships with the artificial dolphins were extremely dangerous to other navies in ports or at their docks. By giving off the same or similar radar signals, taped sounds, and other noises to occupy defensive systems, the teams could cause havoc among enemy warships in any port.
MsgId: *brain_storm(25)
Date: Fri Nov 1 22:41:13 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_Ph.D._(host)_with_Martin_Caidin At: 206.80.165.37
KH: What about the future? For example, what about the possibility of actually implanting bionic systems in the human brain to augment memory and/or enhance other kinds of human performance?
MsgId: *brain_storm(26)
Date: Fri Nov 1 22:45:21 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_Ph.D._(host)_with_Martin_Caidin At: 206.80.165.37
MC: One of the most surprising things we've learned in bionics programs is that the best all-around weapons systems are not bionic in nature but are human in both concept and performance. Any biological being, or any bionic being, which has two hearts, would naturally have two hearts each of which would be weaker than a natural or biological single heart. If we wish the bionic soldier to withstand cold or heat more than he does naturally, we give away more than we gain. The bionic soldier can be modified or built in such a way that he is suited for very few missions. The best overall soldier is still the human being.The ability of scientist to modify man into cyborg is very limited. The knowledge we have of the human brain to date is so little compared with the actual complexity of the brain that the best bionic brain in comparison seems like a Tinker Toy. There is nothing in the world that better illustrates the superiority of the brain than the way in which historical precedent used for its experience is integrated immediately with data just obtained by a human being. No computer can match that level of performance.
For example, I can take you from wherever you are in the world and if I can transport you at midnight to Times Square, you would know immediately -- with one glance around you -- where you were and what was happening.
MsgId: *brain_storm(29)
Date: Fri Nov 1 22:50:58 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_Ph.D._(host)_with_Martin_Caidin At: 206.80.165.37
KH: Well, what about aesthetics? Can a cybernetic system ever appreciate music, for example?
MsgId: *brain_storm(30)
Date: Fri Nov 1 22:52:56 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_Ph.D._(host)_with_Martin_Caidin At: 206.80.165.37
MC: Not as music. Not as a melody. Nor a symphony. Nor jazz. To a cybernetic system, or a human being, music is really a series of mathematically carried sounds. To both creatures, music is entirely different. They both may get the same message, but it may actually mean entirely different things.
MsgId: *brain_storm(31)
Date: Fri Nov 1 22:54:47 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_Ph.D._(host)_with_Martin_Caidin At: 206.80.165.37
KH: To bring this all down to a very human level: In your fictional work, you explore the ways in which human beings may be enhanced through bionic implants. This would seem to be a wonderful possibility for those who are injured or disabled, and even those who are not injured but who want to enhance their performance. Was it all just fiction?
MsgId: *brain_storm(32)
Date: Fri Nov 1 23:01:40 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_Ph.D._(host)_with_Martin_Caidin At: 206.80.165.37
MC: Consider these points. Let's say you are a bionic soldier. You can never eat normal meals. Your sytems, mechanical and electronic, had better work all the time without failure from too much heat or cold, or humidity. The normal ability of the human form to adapt to emergency situations is lost. What replaces it is clumsy and not always available.For example, where does the Cyborg get spare parts? Who adjusts these spare parts? All the time that the Cyborg exists, it must have a power source. It must be a source that meets all emergency situations. It must be encased for going under a body of water -- be waterproof. There is far more involved than simply taking a smashed arm or leg and replacing it with an artificial implant. It has to adapt to any temperature. It must be a system that enables it to work under any situation that one can imagine. I would not use or choose to use a cyborg aboard a spacecraft because it would need a separate system of detecting the onset of gravity, cold, heat, etc. If the cyborg is so built that it does not perform outside the scope of human performance what is the use of building a cyborg in the first place?
The only superiority of the bionic system is when it is designed and built by human beings for the purposes of a single mission, no matter what that mission might be. In other words, the cybernetic system still must give way to mankind as a superior creature. Besides, producing men in large numbers, very cheaply, is still beyond the premise of the Cyborg. Alas, poor Yorick!
MsgId: *brain_storm(37)
Date: Fri Nov 1 23:07:09 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_Ph.D._(host)_with_Martin_Caidin At: 206.80.165.37
KH: Well, unfortunately, we're out of time for tonight's show. But before we go, I'd like to ask you to tell us something positive about what you envision for the future of bionics in human life?
MsgId: *brain_storm(38)
Date: Fri Nov 1 23:09:34 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_Ph.D._(host)_with_Martin_Caidin At: 206.80.165.37
MC: Very simply -- we live in a bionic world right now. There isn't a large ship, plane, car, train or any vehicle that travels without a bionic system to keep track of almost everything it does. Let us hope that we are not the targets of such terrific home study in the future. If we give away all of our powers to bionic systems, they will start to run things instead of us. So the best future is one on which mankind is still running the show.There is also a new cybernetics project in the works, which we cannot reveal to the public at this time. I'm working with Barbara Gallagher on it right now, and we'll come on a future Brainstorms show together to tell you and your guests all about it!
MsgId: *brain_storm(40)
Date: Fri Nov 1 23:13:41 EST 1996
From: Keith_Harary_Ph.D._(host)_with_Martin_Caidin At: 206.80.165.37
KH: Thank you Martin Caidin for a wonderful and surprising discussion of your view of cybernetics and human life. We'll look forward to having you and Ms. Gallager on the show in the future. I'm your host, Dr. Keith Harary. Thank you for joining us here on Brainstorms. Join us again next week for another fascinating discussion exploring the boundaries of the mind, the brain, and human behavior. Good night for Brainstorms.
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