Prime Time Replay:
Special Magazine Editors Panel
Gordon Van Gelder, Gardner Dozois, and Ellen Datlow
MsgId: *omni_visions(1)
Date: Thu May 29 21:01:41 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
Welcome to a special "Fifth Thursday" chat at OmniVisions. Our panel tonight will consist of sf's foremost magazine editors: Gordon Van Gelder of The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction, Gardner Dozois from Isaac Asimov's Magazine, and Ellen Datlow, from of course, Omni. (She is also our esteemed producer.) We will begin as usual at 10:00 PM EDT with an interview/panel discussion, and will open the forum for your participation sometime around 11:00 PM. Join us!
MsgId: *omni_visions(2)
Date: Thu May 29 21:57:37 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
Hi. I'm here.
MsgId: *omni_visions(3)
Date: Thu May 29 21:59:02 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
Hi, I'm here. --Gardner
MsgId: *omni_visions(4)
Date: Thu May 29 21:59:15 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
Two minutes till showtime. Anyone else here yet?
MsgId: *omni_visions(5)
Date: Thu May 29 21:59:25 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
Hi Jim. I'm here. Am I early?
MsgId: *omni_visions(6)
Date: Thu May 29 22:00:08 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
Hi Gardner.
MsgId: *omni_visions(7)
Date: Thu May 29 22:00:14 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
I guess I'm not early. Let me adjust my tie.
MsgId: *omni_visions(8)
Date: Thu May 29 22:00:49 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
Hi Gordon.
MsgId: *omni_visions(9)
Date: Thu May 29 22:00:53 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
I'm here, wherever "here" is. --Gardner
MsgId: *omni_visions(10)
Date: Thu May 29 22:01:06 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
Nope, you're right on time, and it's now 10:00 PM. Welcome. Anyone see Gardner in the room yet?
MsgId: *omni_visions(11)
Date: Thu May 29 22:01:22 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
Hi!
MsgId: *omni_visions(12)
Date: Thu May 29 22:01:51 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
Oh goodness, we were supposed to wear CLOTHES? find some shorts> --Gardner
MsgId: *omni_visions(13)
Date: Thu May 29 22:02:00 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
A beautiful tie it is Gordon (as usual)--I'm imagining it (I know you only have one:>)
MsgId: *omni_visions(14)
Date: Thu May 29 22:02:01 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
Let start right in: In these chats, it has become my favorite stock question to ask writers about short stories vs. longer works. James Gunn and John Brunner (among others) asserted in essays that the short story can do turns and tricks in sf better than "mainstream" fiction. Do you agree with this, and is so, how/why? (Later I'll inquire about the marketplace.)
MsgId: *omni_visions(15)
Date: Thu May 29 22:02:43 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
Can you not see me, Jim?
MsgId: *omni_visions(16)
Date: Thu May 29 22:03:37 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
I think short sf is certainly more interesting than most mainstream short fiction. It's more imaginative (generally speaking) more outward (I find most domestic mainstream short fiction too insular and dull dull dull).
MsgId: *omni_visions(17)
Date: Thu May 29 22:04:06 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
(An interface note to our guests: Remember that this software will only sustain about a paragraph of text. If your message is longer than that, break it up by ending with an ellipsis (...), and then when your multi-part message is done, type /ga for "Go Ahead".)
MsgId: *omni_visions(18)
Date: Thu May 29 22:04:34 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
Oh Gardner....I've never seen....
MsgId: *omni_visions(19)
Date: Thu May 29 22:04:58 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
Now I see you, Gardner... You were standing in the shadows. (By the bar.)
MsgId: *omni_visions(20)
Date: Thu May 29 22:05:01 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
I've always been a short fiction man myself, and love the form far more than novels. --Gardner
MsgId: *omni_visions(21)
Date: Thu May 29 22:05:31 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
It's too easy to generalize about mainstream short fiction or SF short fiction. O. Henry's short stories turned tricks with the best SF stories.
MsgId: *omni_visions(22)
Date: Thu May 29 22:05:43 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
Gardner, do you mean as writer or editor or both?
MsgId: *omni_visions(23)
Date: Thu May 29 22:06:13 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
Gardner, can you elaborate on the difference as a writer on the craft of short fiction? Why do you prefer it?
MsgId: *omni_visions(24)
Date: Thu May 29 22:06:45 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
But Gordon, I'm not sure that I consider O'Henry a "mainstream" writer.....he certainly wrote dark stories, and fantasy -like stories.
MsgId: *omni_visions(25)
Date: Thu May 29 22:06:47 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
If you include novellas as short fiction, then that may be the perfect form for SF. Long enough to include some detail about the society, short enough not to be dull
MsgId: *omni_visions(26)
Date: Thu May 29 22:08:05 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
I agree with Gardner, although a long novelette will do the same thing.
MsgId: *omni_visions(27)
Date: Thu May 29 22:08:28 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
That's why it's a tricky question---what do you call "mainstream"? I've read a lot of bad, boring "mainstream" stories. Ditto for SF.
MsgId: *omni_visions(28)
Date: Thu May 29 22:08:43 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
True, Gordon. And of course, I should have specified that this was a generaliozation and as such, subject to all kinds of exceptions. I'd like to especially solicit your take on long vs. short, since you're still an editor of novels at St. Martin's Press, and now handling shorts (as it were) at F&SF.
MsgId: *omni_visions(29)
Date: Thu May 29 22:09:00 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
Both, Ellen. I've edited a novel line, but enjoy editing short fiction more.
MsgId: *omni_visions(30)
Date: Thu May 29 22:10:39 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
I like short fiction because it's CONSISE. A really good short story should contain no more words than it needs to get the job done. Just that many, then stop.
MsgId: *omni_visions(31)
Date: Thu May 29 22:11:15 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
I'm coming to disagree with Gardner over time about the novella being ideal for SF.
MsgId: *omni_visions(32)
Date: Thu May 29 22:12:18 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
I'm starting to think the ideal form is the novel formed from linked novellas, like Sturgeon's MORE THAN HUMAN or Wilhelm's WHERE LATE THE SWEET BIRDS SANG. The total book tends to be more than the sum of the parts (in ideal cases).
MsgId: *omni_visions(33)
Date: Thu May 29 22:12:21 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
Wheras many novels I see today strike me as grossly padded. As a writer myself, I'd be much more likely to boil a 400- page novel down to a short story than to expand a short story to a 400-page novel.
MsgId: *omni_visions(34)
Date: Thu May 29 22:12:27 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
I can't define "mainstream" any better than I can easily define SF&F, other than to say that it's what some derogataril(sp?) refer to as "mundane" fiction; meaning that the stories could occur in the here and now without any extraordinary technologies or supernatural events. Even more simply put, non-genre.
MsgId: *omni_visions(35)
Date: Thu May 29 22:14:18 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
Well, even novellas can be padded. Form dictates length: if you CAN handle the material as a short story, do so. You only need to go longer if the material is complex enough that you CAN'T do it justice at a shorter length.
MsgId: *omni_visions(36)
Date: Thu May 29 22:14:23 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
I find many sf novels bloated. I think that it's only excep- tional cases wherein an idea cannot be expressed in the short form (up to novella). But of course, one can't make a living writing short fiction.
MsgId: *omni_visions(37)
Date: Thu May 29 22:15:09 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
Gardner, I agree with you that there's something wonderful about a concise story in which not a word is wasted, but I have to say also that I love a long novel in which I can lose myself.
MsgId: *omni_visions(38)
Date: Thu May 29 22:16:15 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
What a linked collection of novellas has going for it over a single novella is that it can show progress through time. How the implications of the idea work themselves out over a period of years. A minor character in one story can be the hero of another 20 years later.
MsgId: *omni_visions(39)
Date: Thu May 29 22:16:44 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
Gordon, is there a distinction between the 'linked novellas' you refer to, and serial short stories/novellas, such as City or Foundation?
MsgId: *omni_visions(40)
Date: Thu May 29 22:17:42 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
(I should add Cordwainer Smith)
MsgId: *omni_visions(41)
Date: Thu May 29 22:17:43 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
Gardner---that's exactly what I like about longer novels (or linked novellas):the sense of scope.
MsgId: *omni_visions(42)
Date: Thu May 29 22:18:56 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
No, I don't see a real distinction between linked stories and linked novellas, except that the books formed of linked novellas tend to flow much better. You get more unity.
MsgId: *omni_visions(43)
Date: Thu May 29 22:18:57 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
I'm not really sure I share that feeling, Gordon. Unless they're exceptional, long novels tend to bore me. Even most of the best of them have long dead stretches to them.
MsgId: *omni_visions(44)
Date: Thu May 29 22:20:28 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
Jim, it's hard to keep up with the screens in this format. If I miss an important question, just repeat it.
MsgId: *omni_visions(45)
Date: Thu May 29 22:21:20 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
Understood, Gardner. You ain't missed nuttin yet.
MsgId: *omni_visions(46)
Date: Thu May 29 22:21:44 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
Usually, if I stick with a book past the first 100 pages or so, I can stick with it for a *long* time. I suspect I'm more of a Victorian reader than you are, Gardner.
MsgId: *omni_visions(47)
Date: Thu May 29 22:21:47 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
Wasn't Bishop's Catacomb Years a series of linked stories and also Jack Dann's The Man Who Melted? Or a combo of short stories and novellas? I think it's difficult to make such wonderful fragments into a cohesive "novel." I read the Bishop _as_ a novel, the Dann as short stories first. The latter worked better for me separately because I read the stories individually.
MsgId: *omni_visions(48)
Date: Thu May 29 22:22:19 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
I think many novels are the worst today for being padded, and some book editors even ENCOURAGE the authors to pad them, because a long book is more credible as an A title. It's a rare novel that I couldn't easily cut 30,000 words out of, though.
MsgId: *omni_visions(49)
Date: Thu May 29 22:23:07 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
Gardner, you can change the history size to 8 or 10 and that might help.
MsgId: *omni_visions(50)
Date: Thu May 29 22:24:29 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
How do you all feel about fix-ups? Are they merely a marketing ploy to sell a story individually, or do they have artistic merit? Personally, I preferred "The Guardians" over _Childhood's End_, and "The Fireman" over _Farenheit 451_.
MsgId: *omni_visions(51)
Date: Thu May 29 22:24:39 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
Actually, Ellen, although noone believes this, Jack wrote THE MAN WHO MELTED as a novel FIRST, and then pulled short stories out of it for individual publication. People still insist that it's a fix-up, though. Maureen McHugh is sure they'll say the same about her new novel...
MsgId: *omni_visions(52)
Date: Thu May 29 22:25:10 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
I agree with Gardner about the padding. I don't mind wallowing in a good novel but it might be I just don't have the time or energy to carry a doorstop around with me as I mostly read novels while on the subway.
MsgId: *omni_visions(53)
Date: Thu May 29 22:26:08 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
Gardner, I agree that most BIG FAT FANTASY novels have lots of padding, but Nicola Griffith and I tried to cut 25,000 words out of AMMONITE (to pull an example) and we couldn't do it without damaging the book
MsgId: *omni_visions(54)
Date: Thu May 29 22:26:43 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
Gardner that's interesting about the Man Who Melted because it definitely _did_ feel like a fix-up to me. I published several of the stories in Omni before the book came out.
MsgId: *omni_visions(55)
Date: Thu May 29 22:27:05 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
...and AMMONITE clocked in around 384 pages when it was typeset.
MsgId: *omni_visions(56)
Date: Thu May 29 22:27:11 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
...even though 80 percent of it is new material. If you have any part of a novel published beforehand, though, many critics will dismiss it as a "fix-up," as though those are less viable than "real" novels.
MsgId: *omni_visions(57)
Date: Thu May 29 22:27:47 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
But Ammonite wasn't that long to begin with was it? It certainly didn't end up very long.
MsgId: *omni_visions(58)
Date: Thu May 29 22:27:51 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
(Note to audience: It can sometimes appear that questions are answered befor they're asked out of sequence, because all participants type simultaneously and then review what the others have said.)
MsgId: *omni_visions(59)
Date: Thu May 29 22:28:44 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
Sorry. My comment came in before I saw Gordon's about Ammonite.
MsgId: *omni_visions(60)
Date: Thu May 29 22:29:46 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
I think the word count on AMMONITE was around 110,000 - 115,000.
MsgId: *omni_visions(61)
Date: Thu May 29 22:30:15 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
And "Baby Is Three" is the best part of MORE THAN HUMAN. Often the initial story is the best--but ideally the other linked stories should help to explore some of the ramifications of the initial idea as they work themselves out over time.
MsgId: *omni_visions(62)
Date: Thu May 29 22:30:28 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
I think some writers do "fix-up" novels almost as a place holder in their careers--while writing the actual next novel. I'm assuming their publishers also want something out there to keep the author's name out there? Do you think that Gordon? In your novel editor's hat?
MsgId: *omni_visions(63)
Date: Thu May 29 22:31:18 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
110,000 words is hardly a doorstop. Most of my anthologies come out to about that length....
MsgId: *omni_visions(64)
Date: Thu May 29 22:32:24 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
As a book editor, I can tell you that publishers always want books that will sell from writers who sell.
MsgId: *omni_visions(65)
Date: Thu May 29 22:32:36 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
Nicola Griffith is the kind of careful craftsman where that doesn't surprise me at all. But there are a lot of novels out there that are grossly padded, nonetheless. A novella or even a short story can also be padded, of course--then it's part of the editors job to cut those parts out.
MsgId: *omni_visions(66)
Date: Thu May 29 22:33:20 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
I think Bantam, for instance, has been just as happy to publish Connie Willis's individual novellas (UNCHARTED TERRITORY, REMAKE) as the big books like DOOMSDAY BOOK.
MsgId: *omni_visions(67)
Date: Thu May 29 22:34:19 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
Gardner---I agree there are lots of padded books out there; I guess I just don't read many of them.
MsgId: *omni_visions(68)
Date: Thu May 29 22:34:44 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
This is a heretical opinion, because we're supposed to be all for absolute Freedom of the Arts, but sometimes I think that the upper word-limits that used to be set on novels, back when almost no publisher would publish a book longer than 60,000 words, tops...
MsgId: *omni_visions(69)
Date: Thu May 29 22:35:20 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
I have noted that some of the digests have gotten thinner over the last few years, so I'd like to ask you all believe the market for short fiction is as strong as ever? And whether it's currently stronger in anthologies vs. magazines?
MsgId: *omni_visions(70)
Date: Thu May 29 22:36:45 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
...sometimes was actually a GOOD thing, because it forced writers to impose a certain discipline on the material. They were consise because they HAD to be. Give a writer almost infinite room, for all practical purposes, and even the good ones like Jack Vance tend to sprawl.
MsgId: *omni_visions(71)
Date: Thu May 29 22:36:51 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
That's a good question, Jim. I'm still trying to find out the answer.
MsgId: *omni_visions(72)
Date: Thu May 29 22:37:52 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
Charles Brown at LOCUS thinks that book readers and magazine readers don't overlap much anymore.
MsgId: *omni_visions(73)
Date: Thu May 29 22:38:54 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
Jim, I'm not sure either. I worry about the short fiction market. I also know I'm not getting as much fiction from the pros. I don't know if it's because of our going on line or if they aren't writing as much. What about Gardner and Gordon? Are you getting a lot of short stories from pros?
MsgId: *omni_visions(74)
Date: Thu May 29 22:40:14 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
It's been a tough few years for magazines, Jim, mostly for reasons having to do with market-forces that have nothing to do with what's in the magazine. I'd like to think that SF magazines will survive, though, and they DO have some advantages, particularly the digest-sised ones.
MsgId: *omni_visions(75)
Date: Thu May 29 22:40:50 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
Ellen---I'm getting some, but I don't have enough experience yet to measure the amount against any previous period.
MsgId: *omni_visions(76)
Date: Thu May 29 22:41:17 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
Ellen, could it be that the economics of short story writing is (are?) keeping the pros away?
MsgId: *omni_visions(77)
Date: Thu May 29 22:41:47 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
It seems to me that a lot of pros are strongly committed to short fiction and they make time for stories *in between* novels.
MsgId: *omni_visions(78)
Date: Thu May 29 22:41:55 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
Can you enumerate those advantages, Gardner?
MsgId: *omni_visions(79)
Date: Thu May 29 22:42:28 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
...the big advantage being that they're VERY cheap to produce. So you can make a profit on a relatively low amount of sales. Anthologies, on the other hand, cost more to produce, and so have to generate a higher degree of profit to break even.
MsgId: *omni_visions(80)
Date: Thu May 29 22:42:29 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
Gardner, of course the fact that the digest sized mags are cheaper to produce is a positive but the down side is that they just aren't as visible a they used to be on he newsstand. There's so much competition.
MsgId: *omni_visions(81)
Date: Thu May 29 22:42:59 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
The economics of being a writer are nearly as bad as the economics of being a publisher (of either books or magazines).
MsgId: *omni_visions(82)
Date: Thu May 29 22:44:44 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
Gordon, I suspect that some of these writers may work short pieces in-between, as you stated, to "keep their chops up". I believe short works are a specific craft that may have a high pay-off for some writers. But then, I'm no editor or writer. How do you feel about this?
MsgId: *omni_visions(83)
Date: Thu May 29 22:45:04 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
That's true, Ellen, but the SF magazines may be able to survive by the strategy that kept the mammals alive during the dinosaur era: Low Expectations. Keep small and cheap and run through the underbrush. Whereas you'll notice that none of the anthology series of the last decade or so...
MsgId: *omni_visions(84)
Date: Thu May 29 22:45:16 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
The writers I worked with when I first started at OMNI have all moved on to novel-writing. Some still write short stories but many like Wm Gibson, Dan Simmons don't have the time and others, like Bruce McAllister seem to have dropped out of the field for the time being.....
MsgId: *omni_visions(85)
Date: Thu May 29 22:46:47 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
...have managed to survive through more than a few volumes. The jury's still out on STARLIGHT, of course.
MsgId: *omni_visions(86)
Date: Thu May 29 22:46:51 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
Speaking of anthologies, Gardner and Ellen, you each do "Best of the Year" books for Gordon if his SMP incarnation. What relaltionship do you have with him--is he the editor's editor?
MsgId: *omni_visions(87)
Date: Thu May 29 22:47:20 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
There are of course, some writers who _do_ keep writing both and both well--Silverberg, Connie Willis, Michael Swanwick, Bruce Stering. I'm not finding as many newer really excellent writers as I'd like.
MsgId: *omni_visions(88)
Date: Thu May 29 22:48:33 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
Ellen---you're overlooking all the writers like Paul Park, Jack Womack, and K.W. Jeter whom you've gotten to write short fiction after they've published some novels.
MsgId: *omni_visions(89)
Date: Thu May 29 22:48:36 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
Well, with Terri Windling and my Year's Best, Jim Frenkel is the packager so we deal more directly with him than with Gordon. Jim acts as our editor.
MsgId: *omni_visions(90)
Date: Thu May 29 22:49:00 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
I think you'll find after a while, Gordon, that most pros only have time for the occasional short story, once they hit a certain point in their careers. The exceptions are those writers who keep doing short fiction because they LOVE to do short fiction, even though it's against their own interests.
MsgId: *omni_visions(91)
Date: Thu May 29 22:49:58 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
Jim---as I suggested in the note to Ellen re Womack & Jeter, I think a lot of novelists find they can stretch in different directions by writing short fiction.
MsgId: *omni_visions(92)
Date: Thu May 29 22:50:19 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
Gordon, of course you're right about Park, Jeter, and Womack(also Terry Bisson) but believe me those were happy accidents. I had no idea that none of them wrote short stories (either at all, or very few).
MsgId: *omni_visions(93)
Date: Thu May 29 22:51:01 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
Gardner---I think you're basically right; Joe Haldeman writes a book's worth of short stories every ten years.
MsgId: *omni_visions(94)
Date: Thu May 29 22:51:24 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
And the sad fact is that very few writers ever make a living at writing novels, either--especially if you define a "living" at a reasonable middle-class level. And, historically, they never have. Almost all of the famous SF was written by people with day-jobs.
MsgId: *omni_visions(95)
Date: Thu May 29 22:52:17 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
...and of course there have been the novelists I've nagged and nagged about writing short stories for me, who finally do, and the story doesn't work. That's embarrassing.
MsgId: *omni_visions(96)
Date: Thu May 29 22:53:10 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
Right, Gardner. Historically, few sf writers ever made a living at it till the 60's, I believe. And even then... /ga
MsgId: *omni_visions(97)
Date: Thu May 29 22:53:13 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
Gee, this is all very cheery.
MsgId: *omni_visions(98)
Date: Thu May 29 22:54:26 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
Do you all have a commitment to "discovering" or fostering new writers? How do you manage to deal with slush piles?
MsgId: *omni_visions(99)
Date: Thu May 29 22:54:44 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
I don't see any evidence, though, that fewer pros are writing short fiction now because of the economic situation. The economic situation has ALWAYS sucked. You see the same names in the piles now as you did ten years ago, unless they're dead or retired.
MsgId: *omni_visions(100)
Date: Thu May 29 22:55:39 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
Times are tough...but they've been worse.
MsgId: *omni_visions(101)
Date: Thu May 29 22:55:44 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
I think that's what every editor works for "discovering (whatever that means) and encouraging wonderful new writers. But they rarely come directly out of the slush pile (at least for me).
MsgId: *omni_visions(102)
Date: Thu May 29 22:56:14 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
And I think that there are plenty of talented new writers at various stages of development--but then, Ellen's fussier than I am.
MsgId: *omni_visions(103)
Date: Thu May 29 22:56:32 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
I'm still letting my hamster go through the slush pile. He seems to enjoy it.
MsgId: *omni_visions(104)
Date: Thu May 29 22:56:53 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
But Gardner, could it not be that now, some writers EXPECT to make a living at writing, which was never the case in various Golden Ages?
MsgId: *omni_visions(105)
Date: Thu May 29 22:57:20 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
...but he did need to take a week off.
MsgId: *omni_visions(106)
Date: Thu May 29 22:58:20 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
Jim, I can answer your question about the economics. There have ALWAYS been writers who thought the world owes them a living...
MsgId: *omni_visions(107)
Date: Thu May 29 22:58:27 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
Have any of you ever found anything of value on the slush pile (outside of Gordon's hamster)?
MsgId: *omni_visions(108)
Date: Thu May 29 22:58:33 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
Gardner, I see a few excellent newer writers but many more really dull writers with no spark whatsoever and that discourages me.
MsgId: *omni_visions(109)
Date: Thu May 29 22:59:18 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
I think that's true, Jim, but all that means is that a lot of writers are going to be disappointed. You can even put a positive spin on the fact that historically most SF has been written by people with day-jobs. That means...
MsgId: *omni_visions(110)
Date: Thu May 29 22:59:44 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
...and there have always been hard-working writers who couldn't survive economically off of their writing alone. The stakes may be a little higher now than they were in the past, but the basic situation hasn't changed much.
MsgId: *omni_visions(111)
Date: Thu May 29 23:00:30 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
Rob Killheffer, when he was my asst several years ago, found an excellent story by Australian writer Stephen Dedman that I published in Little Deaths. This year I took a story of his from F&SF for the Year's Best and his first novel is out.
MsgId: *omni_visions(112)
Date: Thu May 29 23:01:04 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
...that most SF will be written by people who WANT to write SF, because they love to write it. That's not such a bad thing. I'd rather see that than a lot of cynical hack work turned out by people who are getting rich on it.
MsgId: *omni_visions(113)
Date: Thu May 29 23:01:54 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
AgreeMsg, Gardner & Gordon. I just think that could be a difference between expectations today and yesterday, and why some writers will let economics rule their decisions.
MsgId: *omni_visions(114)
Date: Thu May 29 23:02:48 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
And I've occasionally worked with writers from the slush pile,not buying their first stories but encouraging them to submit elsewhere and buying maybe their second or third stories....(I can't remember anyone like this specifically). I've also bought stories for anthologies from unpublished writers--not exactly slush;maybe they went to Clarion or were recommended to me by someone else.
MsgId: *omni_visions(115)
Date: Thu May 29 23:03:28 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
That's great, Ellen, though sadly unique considering what everyone has been saying (and from my experience as a slush reader at Galaxy). How then, should a talented new writer begin to submit?
MsgId: *omni_visions(116)
Date: Thu May 29 23:04:03 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
No one knows better than I how hard it is to make a living as a freelancer. But the writers who really LOVE writing SF find time to write it anyway, no matter what they have to do to pay the rent. I have no sympathy for someone who has no time to do good work because he's too busy hacking.
MsgId: *omni_visions(117)
Date: Thu May 29 23:05:34 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
A talented new writer should start sending out her stories in a professional manner and hope for the best. And not be discouraged by rejections. And keep writing and keep submitting.
MsgId: *omni_visions(118)
Date: Thu May 29 23:05:58 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
I've found lots of good stuff in the slush pile over the years, and there still is good stuff in there. A magazine editor who doesn't pay attention to the slush is cutting himself off at the feet. Where will he get his new writers from?
MsgId: *omni_visions(119)
Date: Thu May 29 23:06:20 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
(Message to all: We have now opened up the forum for audience participation. If you would like to join in with Ellen Datlow, Gardner Dozois, and Gordon Van Gelder, exit the forum and re-enter so you'll have a dialog box which lets you post questions. Please don't forget to sign your messages so we know who you are.)
MsgId: *omni_visions(120)
Date: Thu May 29 23:07:03 EDT 1997
From: Karl_Erickson At: 204.157.102.57
What do you think the role of the internet might be in the future of the writing-submission process? Is there concern that the convenience of email submission might make slushpiles unmanagably large?
MsgId: *omni_visions(121)
Date: Thu May 29 23:07:16 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
Jim---A new writer should stop wasting time watching us bicker and go write something and submit it to us.
MsgId: *omni_visions(122)
Date: Thu May 29 23:08:15 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
Quite true, Ellen. And it should be cheering to the new writers to realize that it's probably easier to break into professional print in this field than in any other one I can think of. Lots easier than the mystery field, for instance, and light-years easier than the "literary mainstream."
MsgId: *omni_visions(123)
Date: Thu May 29 23:08:38 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
Karl---Most editors won't yet accept electronic submissions. It's still too hard to read on the screen (in my opinion, anyway).
MsgId: *omni_visions(124)
Date: Thu May 29 23:09:45 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
I'd likt to amend Karl's question about online to ask about the policy that one may not become a SFWA member based on anything published online. (Ellen may wish to exempt herself herself from this, as it's clear that Omni, as an online publisher has a definite stake...)
MsgId: *omni_visions(125)
Date: Thu May 29 23:09:48 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 152.163.205.21
What about novelists like Robert Reed (with a few) and Gene Wolfe (with many novel credits) who both seem to be prolific short story writers? Dave_Truesdale
MsgId: *omni_visions(126)
Date: Thu May 29 23:10:00 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
Karl---but the corollary to your question is that there's LOTS of concern over what internet publishing will do to the field in general.
MsgId: *omni_visions(127)
Date: Thu May 29 23:10:32 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
Electronic online publishing is the big wild card in the short fiction market. No one really knows what's going to happen in that area yet, the whole thing is too new. It could become a thriving new market, or amount to nothing much in particular. No one knows yet which it will be.
MsgId: *omni_visions(128)
Date: Thu May 29 23:10:32 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
So far, Karl, there is little change in the submission process on the internet. Most ezines don't accept email submissions (I don't) except in very rare cases. Very occasionally I might reject a story via email though, if the story is by someone I've worked with a lot.
MsgId: *omni_visions(129)
Date: Thu May 29 23:11:15 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
Dave---What about them? They're the rare and blessed ones. More power to them.
MsgId: *omni_visions(130)
Date: Thu May 29 23:12:20 EDT 1997
From: Karl_Erickson At: 204.157.102.57
In 1995, Mr. Dozois said, "by FAR the most typical sort of SF story submitted is the near future, soft science, sociological, dystopian story..." Is this still true? Has the slush pile changed much in the last few years?
MsgId: *omni_visions(131)
Date: Thu May 29 23:12:34 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
Jim, re: SFWA membership and online publication I'm on a SFWA committee dealing with that question right now. We're putting together a proposal about it to put before the membership.
MsgId: *omni_visions(132)
Date: Thu May 29 23:12:52 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 152.163.205.21
Gordon-- Gardner mentioned that few novelists write short stories anymore.
MsgId: *omni_visions(133)
Date: Thu May 29 23:13:34 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
Dave, those are the kind of writers magazine editors love! There are several technical reasons why I don't think anyone is likely to end up reading an E-mail slush pile. For one thing alone, how would you protect yourself against viruses?
MsgId: *omni_visions(134)
Date: Thu May 29 23:14:45 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
Gordon, I agree about reading longer works on the screen, despite an index to some 1100 works of sf I have links to on my website; yet when it is formatted well (as is done here at Omni) or used as a distribution channel for hardcopy using such technologies as Adobe Acrobat, online can still play a major role in publishing. And it's still one of the best ways to get excerpts of new books so one may "browse".
MsgId: *omni_visions(135)
Date: Thu May 29 23:14:50 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
Karl, my slushpile is producing a lot of cloning stories these days(unfortunately)and I expect more computer/AI stories than ever before because of the Deep Blue win. The problem is that the slush stories don't seem to have a clue that these ideas are not new to sf and have been done and done for the past 20 years in sf.
MsgId: *omni_visions(136)
Date: Thu May 29 23:16:02 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 152.163.205.21
Gardner-- I agree. There are many things about e-pubbing that are a nightmare. --Dave
MsgId: *omni_visions(137)
Date: Thu May 29 23:16:20 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 204.255.232.57
Gordon, are you using your double position to convince some of your novelists (like Rachel Pollack hopefully) to write short fiction? --Christopher Rowe
MsgId: *omni_visions(138)
Date: Thu May 29 23:16:54 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 205.238.146.135
Lawrence Person: Howdy Ellen, Gardner, Gordon.
MsgId: *omni_visions(139)
Date: Thu May 29 23:17:01 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
Dave, like what?
MsgId: *omni_visions(140)
Date: Thu May 29 23:17:07 EDT 1997
From: Karl_Erickson At: 204.157.102.57
Popular science does seem to spawn its share of fiction. We've had fiction on all the latest, hippest topics, such as VR and nanotech, and now cloning, etc. What interesting areas of current science have been neglected? Have you seen many stories on, for example, memetics?
MsgId: *omni_visions(141)
Date: Thu May 29 23:17:09 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
Karl, things haven't changed much there, I'm afraid. I have no strong opinions on the electronic qualifications issue, except that some moderately tough restrictions should be built into the system, or you're going to be swamped in SFWA by writers with a sale to an obscure E-zine.
MsgId: *omni_visions(142)
Date: Thu May 29 23:18:04 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
(Technical note to Gardner--text-based e-mail can't carry a virus--only an executable program or a macro. And as for Word Macros, there's free protection, but you're better off just accepting mss. in text or HTML.)
MsgId: *omni_visions(143)
Date: Thu May 29 23:18:12 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 152.163.205.21
There is now a SFFWA committee studying the e-pubbing qualifications issue.--Dave
MsgId: *omni_visions(144)
Date: Thu May 29 23:18:18 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
Hi Lawrence. Dave, I think well-formatted fiction is very readable online or it can be printed out or downloaded. As for slush reading, I agree that reading that all day on a screen would be deadly.
MsgId: *omni_visions(145)
Date: Thu May 29 23:18:48 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
Yes, I'm trying to get more of my novelists to write short fiction.
MsgId: *omni_visions(146)
Date: Thu May 29 23:19:45 EDT 1997
From: Karl_Erickson At: 204.157.102.57
I can see the inconvenience posed by an email slushpile. It seems, however, that publisher-writer interactions such as rejection/acceptance and editing might work quite well through email. It would certain reduce response times to submissions, no?
MsgId: *omni_visions(147)
Date: Thu May 29 23:19:47 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 205.238.146.135
Lawrence Person: I, for one, don't think you see many stories based on non-organic chemistry . . .
MsgId: *omni_visions(148)
Date: Thu May 29 23:19:54 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
Dave, FYI, Ellen is on that committee.
MsgId: *omni_visions(149)
Date: Thu May 29 23:19:58 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
Gardner, re: SFWA membership. And how is that different from the print issue? Payment will certainly be a criteria.
MsgId: *omni_visions(150)
Date: Thu May 29 23:20:14 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
Rachel Pollack hasn't written any new short fiction yet, alas.
MsgId: *omni_visions(151)
Date: Thu May 29 23:20:14 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
Lots of other problems with E-mail slush, including all the time you'd have to spend scrolling it down the screen--or the money it would cost to print it out first. Easier to read hardcopy slush. Hi, LP.
MsgId: *omni_visions(152)
Date: Thu May 29 23:20:29 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 152.163.205.21
Gordon-- Except in rare cases, _years_ ago, short fiction writers have never made a living from it. --Dave
MsgId: *omni_visions(153)
Date: Thu May 29 23:20:31 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 204.255.232.57
Have the three of you seen Arlan Card's new e-zine, Undiscovered Country? He's attempting to solve some of the problems of electronic publishing with "no-print, no-copy" Adobe Acrobat files.
MsgId: *omni_visions(154)
Date: Thu May 29 23:21:37 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
Ellen, you wouldn't need to read it on a screen. One could print it out.
MsgId: *omni_visions(155)
Date: Thu May 29 23:21:47 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
Karl, I'm finding email a godsend for editing writers over- seas and just making the back and forth process quicker. It's becoming quite inconvenient for someone _not_ to be on email.
MsgId: *omni_visions(156)
Date: Thu May 29 23:21:54 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
E-mail is a big boon, but I've got to say that the lack of a paper trail still worries me at times...
MsgId: *omni_visions(157)
Date: Thu May 29 23:22:43 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 204.255.232.57
Oops, I should have signed that. That was me, Christopher, with the Undiscovered Country comment, I'm not Card trying to get a free plug.
MsgId: *omni_visions(158)
Date: Thu May 29 23:22:56 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 205.238.146.135
Andy Watson has made noises about publishing a Rachrl Pollack short story collection, but it will be afterhe gets around to doing Paul di Filipo's gargantuan novel (if that ever happens)
MsgId: *omni_visions(159)
Date: Thu May 29 23:23:18 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
Dave---And nowadays short fiction writers are making a living at it? Besides Harlan Ellison, who?
MsgId: *omni_visions(160)
Date: Thu May 29 23:23:40 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
We do work from disks once we buy something, but we still want to see hardcopy submissions first. I think it will take a while for that to change, too. I don't think it makes much difference, print or electronic format, as long as the membership requirements are made stringent enough.
MsgId: *omni_visions(161)
Date: Thu May 29 23:23:49 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 152.163.205.21
Gardner-- This is a helter skelter format, but I agree with you that the digests will survive because of their low porfile. Good point!--Dave
MsgId: *omni_visions(162)
Date: Thu May 29 23:23:50 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
Jim,re: slush I realize that. I don't want to spend my money printing out slush. Also, I share a printer with 4 other people.They woudn't appreciate my tying up the printer.
MsgId: *omni_visions(163)
Date: Thu May 29 23:24:14 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
Guest, please don't forget to dsign your name. As for Adobe Acrobat, you can print from it if: 1. You own the distributution program to create Acrobat files, and 2: If you simply capture the screen and print it.
MsgId: *omni_visions(164)
Date: Thu May 29 23:24:29 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
Yes, the BURNING SKY collection of Rachel's short stories is a long-term project.
MsgId: *omni_visions(165)
Date: Thu May 29 23:24:35 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 205.238.146.135
Lawrence Person: Howard Waldrop, but its not much of a living. :-(
MsgId: *omni_visions(166)
Date: Thu May 29 23:24:45 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
(s/b sign, not dsign)
MsgId: *omni_visions(167)
Date: Thu May 29 23:25:50 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
Gordon, lack of a paper trail? Are you kidding? I have more paper now than I ever did before email. I print everything out and then lose it on my desk... Christopher, I checked it out. Had a hard time figuring how to work the system and never got around to actually reading the stuff in it.
MsgId: *omni_visions(168)
Date: Thu May 29 23:25:58 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
Re printouts, I also hate wasting time formatting electronic stuff just so I can print it out.
MsgId: *omni_visions(169)
Date: Thu May 29 23:26:14 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
Good points re: printing, Ellen.
MsgId: *omni_visions(170)
Date: Thu May 29 23:26:49 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
Lawrence, Howard is your classic starving writer.
MsgId: *omni_visions(171)
Date: Thu May 29 23:27:01 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
I don't think anybody ever made a living in this field JUST from writing short fiction, not even Harlan. In his prime, he was making a big part of his income from doing lectures and such, for big money. LP, if most people made the "living" that Howard does, they'd be dead!
MsgId: *omni_visions(172)
Date: Thu May 29 23:27:38 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
The only things that I've found that work well electronically are newsletters like Dave Silva's HELLNOTES and Paul Guran's DARK ECHO. Anything long is hard to read on-line
MsgId: *omni_visions(173)
Date: Thu May 29 23:28:18 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 152.163.205.21
Ellen-- Literally, in Howard's case! --Dave
MsgId: *omni_visions(174)
Date: Thu May 29 23:28:24 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 204.255.232.57
I don't think Howard Waldrop could survive on short story writing if he wasn't such a good fisherman. --Christopher
MsgId: *omni_visions(175)
Date: Thu May 29 23:28:27 EDT 1997
From: Karl_Erickson At: 204.157.102.57
Earlier, there was talk of the 'trick' story, with O. Henry being mentioned, and SF discussed as being more amenable to such stuff. Is there much of a market for the trick-ending story any more? I had thought they were out of style.
MsgId: *omni_visions(176)
Date: Thu May 29 23:29:21 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
I think it's easiest to read something online when it looks like paper.
MsgId: *omni_visions(177)
Date: Thu May 29 23:29:23 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
Ellen---regarding the paper trail, I've had lots of problems when an e-mail bounced and I didn't find out for three days. If a letter "bounces," it's easier to track back the paperp trail.
MsgId: *omni_visions(178)
Date: Thu May 29 23:29:37 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 152.163.205.21
Gardner-- An exception, maybe, but Ed Hamilton did quite well years back cranking out pulp stories.--Dave
MsgId: *omni_visions(179)
Date: Thu May 29 23:29:48 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
The big problem with online publishing, especially of short fiction, is that no one has yet come up with a reliable way to make MONEY off it. That will have to change before this area can really start booming.
MsgId: *omni_visions(180)
Date: Thu May 29 23:30:43 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
Karl---I think also that "trick" stories are generally out of style.
MsgId: *omni_visions(181)
Date: Thu May 29 23:31:20 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
I personally, only like a "trick" ending if there's some- thing more going on, and I'm not wild about them in sf. I think it works better in the short sharp shock kind of horror.
MsgId: *omni_visions(182)
Date: Thu May 29 23:31:31 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
Editors: Do you see any hope that online (or disk-based) publishing might enhance the medium of writing? i.e. hypertext. (I really should have posed this last week when we had STephen Baxter, who's composed fiction in hypertext, but we were having technical difficulties.)
MsgId: *omni_visions(183)
Date: Thu May 29 23:32:06 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
But Dave, for that to work, you have to have a LOT of buying markets--there were about fifty or more pulps of one sort or another in the '50s at one point--and you have to crank the stuff out FAST. Very fast. I don't think that strategy could work today.
MsgId: *omni_visions(184)
Date: Thu May 29 23:32:54 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 152.163.205.21
Gardner-- Absolutely correct. that was a different era.--Dave
MsgId: *omni_visions(185)
Date: Thu May 29 23:32:59 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
Gordon, you're right that you don't know if something bounces for a few days but the same goes for a letter and our illustrious post office and it often takes longer than a few days to find out your check never made it where it was going.
MsgId: *omni_visions(186)
Date: Thu May 29 23:33:58 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 152.163.205.21
So Gordon, does Montgolfier like mainstream? --Dave
MsgId: *omni_visions(187)
Date: Thu May 29 23:34:20 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
Jim,I have to say that I personally have very little interest in hypertext fiction.
MsgId: *omni_visions(188)
Date: Thu May 29 23:35:06 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 204.255.232.57
MsgId: *omni_visions(189)
Date: Thu May 29 23:35:40 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
Depends on how tricky your trick IS. On the whole, I think they work better as TWILIGHT ZONE-ish things. I find most FICTIONAL hypertexts annoying. I want to read the STORY, if it's interesting, not to be distracted by looking up what kind of lemurs there are in Madagasgar.
MsgId: *omni_visions(190)
Date: Thu May 29 23:35:54 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
Jim---I think Geoff Ryamn's internet novel 253 is brilliantly adapted to the internet; on paper, I suspect the book will look more like a literary game than a novel.
MsgId: *omni_visions(191)
Date: Thu May 29 23:36:27 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
Ellen, any particular reason? Is it that stories stop being linear when in hypertext?
MsgId: *omni_visions(192)
Date: Thu May 29 23:37:33 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 204.255.232.57
Gordon, I saw Geoff read from his manuscript last year, he looked a little like a mad professor having a fist fight with a text book. But his delivery, as you would expect, was outstanding.
MsgId: *omni_visions(193)
Date: Thu May 29 23:37:53 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
Dave---Monty likes a good story. His little beady eyes don't distinguish the various genre/nongenre distinctions too well.
MsgId: *omni_visions(194)
Date: Thu May 29 23:37:57 EDT 1997
From: Karl_Erickson At: 204.157.102.57
I've given some thought to hypertext fiction, but I tend to think that regular fiction is like hypertext fiction with all the choices pre-made by the author. If the author is good, this is ideal, isn't it?
MsgId: *omni_visions(195)
Date: Thu May 29 23:38:01 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
My reaction to most of the hypertext embellishments is, So What? While reading a regular story, I could be moved to get up and go get an encyclopedia and read about the lemurs too. If I do this, it's an indication that the story isn't doing the job it ought to be doing.
MsgId: *omni_visions(196)
Date: Thu May 29 23:38:06 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 204.255.232.57
MsgId: *omni_visions(197)
Date: Thu May 29 23:39:02 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 204.255.232.57
Sorry again, I'm proving remarkably inept with this interface. That was Christopher who saw Geoff, in the bookstore, with the manuscript.
MsgId: *omni_visions(198)
Date: Thu May 29 23:39:11 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
To whoever saw Ryman read from 253, you probably saw him acting out characters, yes?...
MsgId: *omni_visions(199)
Date: Thu May 29 23:40:14 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
It's OPK, Christopher. Don't forget you can exit and re-enter with your name posted.
MsgId: *omni_visions(200)
Date: Thu May 29 23:40:27 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
I feel the same way Gardner does about hyperfiction. I want to be involved in a story. If I'm forced to shift focus to a trivial detail that takes me somewhere else, my concentration is lost. I think hypertext is better for nf.
MsgId: *omni_visions(201)
Date: Thu May 29 23:40:30 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 152.163.205.21
Gordon-- {Chuckle} Maybe Monty doesn't know he's reading for a genre magazine?? --Dave
MsgId: *omni_visions(202)
Date: Thu May 29 23:40:36 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
...one of the things that I enjoyed about 253 was the sense of *movement* that I got just cruising from passenger to passenger. You don't get the same sense on paper.
MsgId: *omni_visions(203)
Date: Thu May 29 23:41:07 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 152.163.213.21
Are the editors online now?
MsgId: *omni_visions(204)
Date: Thu May 29 23:41:25 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
Gordon, do you therefore feel that there might be a future for hypertext in literature, or just a few exceptions?
MsgId: *omni_visions(205)
Date: Thu May 29 23:41:27 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 204.255.232.57
Gordon, yes he acted out the parts. And until you've seen a seven foot Canadian/Englishman portraying a 70 year old Anne Franke, you just haven't been to a reading. --Christopher
MsgId: *omni_visions(206)
Date: Thu May 29 23:41:27 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
I still think the big question is, who's going to be able to figure out a way to make money by publishing stories online. Do any of you think the TOMORROW experiment--publish the first few issues free, then charge for access to the site-- will work? What about the MIND'S EYE approach?
MsgId: *omni_visions(207)
Date: Thu May 29 23:41:33 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
...Maybe in Guttenberg's day, people got that sense of movement from reading books on paper.
MsgId: *omni_visions(208)
Date: Thu May 29 23:42:42 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
Dave---Give the poor rodent a break. He's a hamster! His brain's about the size of my thumbnail.
MsgId: *omni_visions(209)
Date: Thu May 29 23:43:58 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
Jim---I really have no idea if there's a future for hypertext fiction. All I can tell you is that things is sure changing a lot, and the more they change, the more they stay the same.
MsgId: *omni_visions(210)
Date: Thu May 29 23:44:07 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 152.163.213.21
I have a story at Mind's Eye. So far it's not working. People get too much for free on the web to pay for fiction.
MsgId: *omni_visions(211)
Date: Thu May 29 23:44:31 EDT 1997
From: Karl_Erickson At: 204.157.102.57
I saw an e-zine today that gives previews of a story and makes you pay for the ending if you like it. Sounds interesting, but feels like a con. I didn't try it.
MsgId: *omni_visions(212)
Date: Thu May 29 23:44:43 EDT 1997
From: Tony At: 129.74.220.33
Gardner-- As a consumer, I happily have been reading off of the Tommorrow site, but I won't pay either there or at the other sites. I find that I significantly prefer paper.
MsgId: *omni_visions(213)
Date: Thu May 29 23:44:46 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
I think that, like any other form, there will be a few brilliant successes with hypertext fiction--but that, for the most part, it won't work all that well. It might be better adapted for the kind of Victorian, Dickens-like LONG novels that Gordon was talking about earlier.
MsgId: *omni_visions(214)
Date: Thu May 29 23:44:47 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
Gardner, re: making money online. I dont' think Mind's Eye will work at all. That's where they print some of the story and you have to pay for the rest. Subscriptions might work but I think the best way will be sponsorships and advertising. that's what the OMNI business plan it. Whether we'll make it depends on whether our owners will give us the chance to get that far.
MsgId: *omni_visions(215)
Date: Thu May 29 23:44:55 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 152.163.205.21
Until e-fiction can be read in a palm-sezied reader, we won't buy into it whole hog. --Dave
MsgId: *omni_visions(216)
Date: Thu May 29 23:44:56 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
Gardner, I think it's all dependent on whether They (sic) will ever work out commerce online. If so, then paid subscriptions to websites and portions of websites will become more common, and charges to particular pages can be assessed on a "per-use" basis. But the technology is still far from safe.
MsgId: *omni_visions(217)
Date: Thu May 29 23:45:04 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 152.163.213.21
I think I made 37cents on one story at Mind's Eye.
MsgId: *omni_visions(218)
Date: Thu May 29 23:45:16 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
Gardner---MIND'S EYE is the one that lets you have the start of the story for free, and then you have to pay for the rest of it?
MsgId: *omni_visions(219)
Date: Thu May 29 23:46:09 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 205.238.146.135
Lawrence Person: I, for one, find it hard to read all the fiction I've already paid for. ;-)
MsgId: *omni_visions(220)
Date: Thu May 29 23:46:25 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 204.255.232.57
Well, again, I'll point to Undiscovered Country. As I understand it, you subscribe to the magazine, then Card e-mails you the issues as Acrobat files, or maybe provides a password so that the subscriber can download then from a site. --Christopher
MsgId: *omni_visions(221)
Date: Thu May 29 23:46:45 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
Guest who has a story at Mind's Eye--who are you?
MsgId: *omni_visions(222)
Date: Thu May 29 23:47:13 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 152.163.213.21
Mind's Eye is now working out sponsorships. I still don't know how it will work out. (Billie Mosiman)
MsgId: *omni_visions(223)
Date: Thu May 29 23:47:51 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 152.163.213.21
Hi, Jim. This is Billie Sue Mosiman.
MsgId: *omni_visions(224)
Date: Thu May 29 23:48:18 EDT 1997
From: Tony At: 129.74.220.33
Ellen -- I should note that I've been reading from here also. I like what you have been publishing, but I'm only willing to put up with the screen 'cause it's effectively free. Sorry. Is OMNI being successful 100% advertiser supported?
MsgId: *omni_visions(225)
Date: Thu May 29 23:48:53 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
Looking to move on, I note that there was a question regarding sciences that haven't been covered in sf yet. Any respondents?
MsgId: *omni_visions(226)
Date: Thu May 29 23:49:05 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
Advertising works well as long as the advertisers are willing to continue to advertise--but I hear some advertisers are growing disappointed with the results of Web advertising. In the long run, I think that a way will have to be found for online publications to make money DIRECTLY, before it canwork
MsgId: *omni_visions(227)
Date: Thu May 29 23:49:12 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
I think there's a need on line for excellent content because there's so much garbage online. If a site with good content can build up enough traffic, big corporations will be willing to invest in them with advertising and sponsorships. The problem is, of course that as with any magazine in print no money will be made at first so whoever invests in the\ ezine must have deep pockets and willing to wait for a return on their investment.
MsgId: *omni_visions(228)
Date: Thu May 29 23:49:48 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
Hi Billie Sue... I'll look for your story there.
MsgId: *omni_visions(229)
Date: Thu May 29 23:50:17 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 205.238.146.135
Lawrence Person: Jim> I put forward non-organic chemistry.
MsgId: *omni_visions(230)
Date: Thu May 29 23:50:55 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 205.238.146.135
Lawrence Person: Jim> And you don't see many stories about cutting edge semiconductor processes. ;-)
MsgId: *omni_visions(231)
Date: Thu May 29 23:51:28 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
Gardner I think you're wrong. As advertisers learn how to advertise on the web, they will be more successful (think of tv). I don't think that the web zines will ultimatley make money without advertising.
MsgId: *omni_visions(232)
Date: Thu May 29 23:51:30 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
Ahh... Is THAT what memetics means... *blush*
MsgId: *omni_visions(233)
Date: Thu May 29 23:51:53 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 205.238.146.135
Lawrenc Person: If I might utter a heretical thought, I think it entirely possible that advertising as we know it might collapse.
MsgId: *omni_visions(234)
Date: Thu May 29 23:52:11 EDT 1997
From: Karl_Erickson At: 204.157.102.57
On the unexploited sciences issue, I am particularly curious if much is being done with memetics. It seems like it'd be a great item for 'meta-sf'. Has there been much sf-about-sf lately?
MsgId: *omni_visions(235)
Date: Thu May 29 23:53:05 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
Online publication is appealing because it makes an end-run around the distribution network and many of the other technical problems, like returns, that plague print publishing. Someone still has to figure out a good way to make it PAY, though, before it can come into its own.
MsgId: *omni_visions(236)
Date: Thu May 29 23:53:15 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
Lawrence, you see those stories where I write: Computer SHopper. :-)
MsgId: *omni_visions(237)
Date: Thu May 29 23:53:21 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
Tony, right now we're working on rebuilding our traffic. It was up to 9,000 hits a day before we changed servers. then we (and the Penthouse site) were essentially in stasis for two months. Now we're about to put up the front pages of our redesign and start pushing traffic again. Then we'll see what happens.
MsgId: *omni_visions(238)
Date: Thu May 29 23:53:26 EDT 1997
From: Karl_Erickson At: 204.157.102.57
memetics = the genetics/evolution of ideas
MsgId: *omni_visions(239)
Date: Thu May 29 23:54:24 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 152.163.205.21
Gardner-- Excellent point about on-line pubs getting in the black. --Dave They must make it PAY first.
MsgId: *omni_visions(240)
Date: Thu May 29 23:55:24 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 205.238.146.135
Lawrence Person: After all, with DIAMOND AGE and Bruce's forthcoming DISTRACTION, we're just starting to see the first novels that really deal with distributed intelligence.
MsgId: *omni_visions(241)
Date: Thu May 29 23:55:26 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
Gardner, a very few sites (like Yahoo, ZDNet, C|Net, Netscape) do claim to make a profit from webvertising. Red Herring magaine maintains a list, and the Wall St. Journal occasionally covers the issue.
MsgId: *omni_visions(242)
Date: Thu May 29 23:56:02 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
I'd love to see more stories on unexploited scientific issues.
MsgId: *omni_visions(243)
Date: Thu May 29 23:56:10 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
NOTE TO ALL: 5 minute warning
MsgId: *omni_visions(244)
Date: Thu May 29 23:56:28 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
I hear this question about "sciences not in SF" a lot, and I tend to think those "hidden" sciences just don't lend themselves well to dramatic scenarios. I mean, would you rather read about Roy Chapman Andrews adventuring in search of dinosaurs in the Gobi or would you rather read about Andrews cutting up whale corpses in the basement of a Museum?
MsgId: *omni_visions(245)
Date: Thu May 29 23:56:32 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 152.163.213.21
I have wondered why some novelist hasn't put up an entire novel on a site, offering it in installments, to be paid for in a "shopping cart", just like people pay for items at other commercial sites. I mean, if S. King did it, millions would buy. --Billie Sue
MsgId: *omni_visions(246)
Date: Thu May 29 23:56:47 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 205.238.146.135
MsgId: *omni_visions(247)
Date: Thu May 29 23:56:48 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
I'm interested in getting more detailed information about THE UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY. Can someone send me some? (I hope that they realize that "the undiscovered country" is DEATH...) I agree, actually, LP. Since everyone tapes shows & fast-forwards through them, TV advertisers aren't getting
MsgId: *omni_visions(248)
Date: Thu May 29 23:57:04 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
Karl, thanks for the definition.
MsgId: *omni_visions(249)
Date: Thu May 29 23:57:22 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 152.163.205.21
Everyone taking a breather? --Dave
MsgId: *omni_visions(250)
Date: Thu May 29 23:57:37 EDT 1997
From: Tony At: 129.74.220.33
Ellen-- Well, I'll be watching. Out of curiosity, that works out at roughly 270,000 hits/month. I don't remember what OMNI's circulation was before the switch from paper, but do you thin that you are reaching a different or wider audience online?
MsgId: *omni_visions(251)
Date: Thu May 29 23:58:00 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
Billie Sue---There aren't many writers like Stephen King.
MsgId: *omni_visions(252)
Date: Thu May 29 23:58:03 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 205.238.146.135
Lawrence Person: One more thought: Most post-cyberpunk fiction doesn't deal with just one science. Rather, it deals with the effects of all of them at the same time.
MsgId: *omni_visions(253)
Date: Thu May 29 23:58:20 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
Gardner, I can e-mail info to you. It's put out by Scott Card's brother, Arlen.
MsgId: *omni_visions(254)
Date: Thu May 29 23:58:34 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
Billie Sue, do you really think readers are going to want to print out an entire novel to read? It's cheaper to buy the book in pb than to buy the printer paper. Only King could get away with it if that's the only one could read the novel.
MsgId: *omni_visions(255)
Date: Thu May 29 23:58:42 EDT 1997
From: Karl_Erickson At: 204.157.102.57
The question is, perhaps, just how *does* one exploit these unexploited sciences. Memetics is perhaps too new, and maybe too subtle (?) for exploitation just now. It seems relevant to the distributed intelligence idea. I'd love to read about the *inside* of a cultural singularity (ref Vinge), and I think memetics might help with that.
MsgId: *omni_visions(256)
Date: Thu May 29 23:58:57 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
...the value out of the TV advertising dollar they're spending that they THINK they're getting.
MsgId: *omni_visions(257)
Date: Thu May 29 23:58:58 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 205.238.146.135
Lawrence Person: Well Gardner, Ellen, gordon, I have to go sleep. Next issue of NOVA EXPRESS should be out by the end of June or early July. Night all.
MsgId: *omni_visions(258)
Date: Thu May 29 23:59:35 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 152.163.213.21
MsgId: *omni_visions(259)
Date: Thu May 29 23:59:43 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
Thanks, Lawrence!
MsgId: *omni_visions(260)
Date: Fri May 30 00:00:55 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
It is now Midnight EDT, and I've sealed the forum doors. Last words?
MsgId: *omni_visions(261)
Date: Fri May 30 00:01:07 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 152.163.213.21
Ellen, yes, I think people might print out whole books--by installments. If they'll buy them in the grocery and read them that way, with the cheap cost of printing from one's own printer, I do think they would. It needs to be tried. --Billie
MsgId: *omni_visions(262)
Date: Fri May 30 00:01:28 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
Lawrence---Take your computer to bed with you the remaining five minutes of discussion.
MsgId: *omni_visions(263)
Date: Fri May 30 00:01:38 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
Actually I think there's more really hardcore "hard SF," good stuff, being published now than there was ten years ago. You've got writers like Greg Egan, Paul McCauley, Michael Swanwick, Brian Stableford, Stephen Baxter, and so on, all writing at the top of their form.
MsgId: *omni_visions(264)
Date: Fri May 30 00:01:57 EDT 1997
From: Karl_Erickson At: 204.157.102.57
Great to chat with you all. Thanks for the words.
MsgId: *omni_visions(265)
Date: Fri May 30 00:01:58 EDT 1997
From: Tony At: 129.74.220.33
Gardner-- Didn't some executive once say 'I know that 50% of my advertising budget is wasted ... I just don't know which 50%"?
MsgId: *omni_visions(266)
Date: Fri May 30 00:01:59 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 152.163.205.21
See you all soon. Gotta run. Gordon? You're gonna love a certain photo I took of you at the Nebs, in the next T. Nice to have all three of you here. thanks. --Dave
MsgId: *omni_visions(267)
Date: Fri May 30 00:02:03 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
Thanks for everyone dropping by. It's been fun. Jim, don't forget to copy the chat into html. And finally thank you Gordan and Gardner and Jim.
MsgId: *omni_visions(268)
Date: Fri May 30 00:02:45 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
Actually, I think that comment about taking a computer to bed with you may serve best as my final words. I still prefer reading books in bed (when I'm reading in bed, that is.)
MsgId: *omni_visions(269)
Date: Fri May 30 00:02:48 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 204.255.232.57
Gardner, you think THE UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY is bad, it's full title is THE UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY:BEYOND IMAGINATION. First issue has stories by Orson Scott Card, Dave Wolverton and a whole pack of people from Utah.
MsgId: *omni_visions(270)
Date: Fri May 30 00:03:23 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 152.163.213.21
Enjoyed it. Thanks, editors. Night everyone. --Billie
MsgId: *omni_visions(271)
Date: Fri May 30 00:03:48 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
Was it good for you too, Ellen?
MsgId: *omni_visions(272)
Date: Fri May 30 00:04:46 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
Gardner, when you're around it's always great:>
MsgId: *omni_visions(273)
Date: Fri May 30 00:04:55 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
(BTW, Gardner, my editor as Computer Shopper is Sharah Thomas.
MsgId: *omni_visions(274)
Date: Fri May 30 00:05:07 EDT 1997
From: Tony At: 129.74.220.33
Thank you, Ellen, Gardner, Gordon. I forgot I wasn't on EDT for awhile.
MsgId: *omni_visions(275)
Date: Fri May 30 00:05:54 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
Gordon, final thoughts?
MsgId: *omni_visions(276)
Date: Fri May 30 00:05:59 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
Gardner---That wasn't Ellen, that was me (and it wasn't bad). Thanks, all.
MsgId: *omni_visions(277)
Date: Fri May 30 00:06:11 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
Thanks, Ellen! All personal endorsements gratefully accepted!
MsgId: *omni_visions(278)
Date: Fri May 30 00:06:17 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 204.255.232.57
Geez, I did it again, three strikes and I'm off ot bed. That was me again on the unattributed comment. Good night, Ellen and everybody else.
MsgId: *omni_visions(279)
Date: Fri May 30 00:06:35 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 204.255.232.57
MsgId: *omni_visions(280)
Date: Fri May 30 00:06:45 EDT 1997
From: EllenDatlow At: 38.26.24.213
xxoo. Good night all.
MsgId: *omni_visions(281)
Date: Fri May 30 00:07:04 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 204.255.232.57
Make that four strikes. Christopher
MsgId: *omni_visions(282)
Date: Fri May 30 00:07:14 EDT 1997
From: GordonVanGelder At: 152.170.90.214
Jim--After midnight I have no further thoughts.
MsgId: *omni_visions(283)
Date: Fri May 30 00:07:47 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
Shall we all go to the bar now? Jim, I'd like to get info on THE UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY, if you remember. You can get my E-mail address from Ellen.
MsgId: *omni_visions(284)
Date: Fri May 30 00:08:32 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
Understood. This was MOST exhilerating and fun--perhaps we can reconvene at some point. Thank you all for being here!
MsgId: *omni_visions(285)
Date: Fri May 30 00:08:55 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
I have it Gardner, and will send it.
MsgId: *omni_visions(286)
Date: Fri May 30 00:09:05 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 152.163.205.21
Whimps! {Chuckle} --Dave Later...
MsgId: *omni_visions(287)
Date: Fri May 30 00:09:08 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
Gordon, you have THOUGHTS? Well, editing a magazine long enough will take THAT out of you!
MsgId: *omni_visions(288)
Date: Fri May 30 00:09:21 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
Thanks for coming by. Don't forget that next Thursday, June 5, OmniVisions will feature Ed Bryant interviewing Peter Straub on his latest book, The Hellfire Club.
MsgId: *omni_visions(289)
Date: Fri May 30 00:10:20 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 152.163.213.21
Okay, I give. Where's the bar? --Billie
MsgId: *omni_visions(290)
Date: Fri May 30 00:10:41 EDT 1997
From: Gardner_Dozois At: 207.103.124.91
Well, I guess it's time to go. Goodnight, everyone. Buy our magazines!!!!!!
MsgId: *omni_visions(291)
Date: Fri May 30 00:10:55 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
Billie, the bar is between the Alt keys.
MsgId: *omni_visions(292)
Date: Fri May 30 00:11:21 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
Good night, and thanks again.
MsgId: *omni_visions(293)
Date: Fri May 30 00:12:00 EDT 1997
From: guest At: 152.163.213.21
Hahaha. Night all. -- Billie
MsgId: *omni_visions(294)
Date: Fri May 30 00:21:29 EDT 1997
From: Jim_Freund At: 207.38.234.221
...and to all, good night.
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